{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/7659c6sw7f/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["1974-07-24: Open Secret: Origins of Neurosis"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/209/original/cti-library-logo-blue-text.png?1672724952","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1974-07-24"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["Video"]}},{"label":{"en":["Location"]},"value":{"en":["Boulder, Colorado, USA"]}},{"label":{"en":["Event Type"]},"value":{"en":["Panel Discussion"]}},{"label":{"en":["Seminar or Series Title"]},"value":{"en":["\u003ca href=\"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/playlists/246/show\"\u003eNaropa Institute: Open Secret Interviews\u003c/a\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Talk Title"]},"value":{"en":["Origins of Neurosis"]}},{"label":{"en":["Theme"]},"value":{"en":["Psychology and Psychotherapy"]}},{"label":{"en":["Summary"]},"value":{"en":["Panel discussion focused on the subject of neurosis from Buddhist, psychology, anthropology and social science perspectives.  Participants included Chogyam Trungpa, anthropologist and social scientist Gregory Bateson, Jungian analyst and Naropa Institute professor Bernie Weitzman, editor and translator Michael Kohn (Sherab Chodzin), and moderator Duncan Campbell.  Topics include the definitions and origins of neurosis and confusion; ways of working with it from Buddhist, psychotherapeutic, and cultural and social points of view; the role of the therapist; and the possibilities of awakening from neurosis to experience reality genuinely."]}},{"label":{"en":["Publication"]},"value":{"en":["UNPUBLISHED"]}},{"label":{"en":["Transcription Credits"]},"value":{"en":["Aug 14 2021 to Jan 25 2022 Transcribing: Ella Milligan Checking: Anne Seidlitz Final Proof: Anne Seidlitz Other Contributors: Lynn Friedman"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["© Diana J. Mukpo - All rights reserved. Not to be Distributed or Reproduced."]}},{"label":{"en":["Year"]},"value":{"en":["1974"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Panel discussion focused on the subject of neurosis from Buddhist, psychology, anthropology and social science perspectives.  Participants included Chogyam Trungpa, anthropologist and social scientist Gregory Bateson, Jungian analyst and Naropa Institute professor Bernie Weitzman, editor and translator Michael Kohn (Sherab Chodzin), and moderator Duncan Campbell.  Topics include the definitions and origins of neurosis and confusion; ways of working with it from Buddhist, psychotherapeutic, and cultural and social points of view; the role of the therapist; and the possibilities of awakening from neurosis to experience reality genuinely."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["© Diana J. Mukpo - All rights reserved. Not to be Distributed or Reproduced."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Chogyam Trungpa Digital Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Chogyam Trungpa Digital Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/209/original/cti-library-logo-blue-text.png?1672724952","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/167/223/small/thumbnail_167223_1663765311.jpg?1663765315","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - 19740724VCTR2-Video-Prod-CTIRmstrSD-Access.mp4"]},"duration":4925.52533,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/167/223/small/thumbnail_167223_1663765311.jpg?1663765315","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-cti.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/167/223/original/19740724VCTR2-Video-Prod-CTIRmstrSD-Access.mp4?1663700045","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":4925.52533,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["19740724VCTR2-Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[19740724VCTR - Naropa Institute - Open Secret - Origins of Neurosis]\r\n\r\n\r\n[Chogyam Trungpa Institute - Unedited Verbatim Transcript]\r\n\r\n\r\n[Copyright Diana J. Mukpo All Rights Reserved - Not to be Distributed or Reproduced]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=0.0,13.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PRE-INTERVIEW CHITCHAT]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: chitchat lines and-- [Laughs; laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: By the way, Rinpoche, your dog is doing just famously at our place.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Hmm?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Your dog is doing just famously at our place.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I talked to Jim about that yesterday.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Oh, you did?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: He said [INAUDIBLE]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: He barks at strangers.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Mhmm. That's good. That's [INAUDIBLE WORDS].\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: What kind of a dog is [INAUDIBLE]?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: That's good. Okay.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Enormous. We call him \"Noodle.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nCAMERAPERSON: [offscreen] Duncan?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=13.0,39.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: INTRODUCTION]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Welcome to Open Secret, a series of discussions that's being taped at Naropa Institute in Boulder, Colorado. With us tonight we have four people from the Naropa Institute faculty, to discuss the topic \"origins of neurosis.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=39.0,55.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Naropa Institute was founded by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to provide an environment in which the academic and artistic disciplines of the East could interact with those of the West. And this evening, we have with us people who are trained both in Eastern and Western disciplines.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=55.0,73.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Among them, Bernie Weitzman who has been an academically trained psychologist, and has also been trained as a Jungian analyst. He's teaching a course at Naropa Institute entitled \"Jung.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=73.0,86.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, the President of Naropa Institute, is teaching a course on \"The Tibetan Buddhist Path: the Hinayana, the Mahayana, and Buddhist Tantra,\" and has recently published a book entitled CUTTING THROUGH SPIRITUAL MATERIALISM. Gregory Bateson, an anthropologist, whose most recent book is [STEPS] TOWARDS AN ECOLOGY OF MIND, has worked for several years in New Guinea and in The Dutch Indies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=86.0,115.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And Michael Kohn, who has studied in France with Paul Ricoeur the phenomenologist, and is a teaching assistant in Rinpoche's class, entitled \"Buddhist Tantra\", is also the editor of Garuda Magazine, which is a yearly publication of the Vajradhatu Association of Churches, established by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=115.0,137.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 1]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: The topic that we're discussing tonight is \"origins of neurosis.\" And perhaps it seems that the best way to embark on this discussion would be to perhaps talk about what it is exactly that we all mean by \"neurosis\", since it seems to be one of those words that is often misused or abused or used in a fairly sloppy fashion, and it means many things to different people. And I thought maybe Bernie, you could begin, by talking about what, in your own work, is your conception of neurosis and how you apply it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=137.0,175.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: I suppose I can add to the smorgasbord that you described. I view neurosis as the rather strange phenomenon, of someone persistently following a certain path of behavior, where, from the view of an outside observer, the behavior is clearly doomed to failure, and from the point of view of the person who is engaging in that behavior, one would expect that he already knows -- or *should* know -- in some way that he's not going to succeed. It's like coming to the beginning of a certain roadway, and looking down it, and one has walked down that road many, many times, and one knows that at the end of that road, one is going to crash. And one has tried many times, each time walking a little differently; each time somehow convincing oneself that this time one has got if figured out a little better, and one is going to be more cunning on the path this time, and one won't crash. And one walks down that path and crashes again. And somehow a great resistance to recognizing that one already knows the outcome, for some strange reason one persists in that behavior.\r\n\r\n\r\nSo that's in general what I-- how I see the neurotic situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=175.0,282.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well when you talk about success or failure, what exactly is the standard by which one succeeds, or fails?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: It seems that the person wants something. And the way they're trying to get it, doesn't bring them what they want. And some place in that is... is a puzzle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=282.0,310.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 2]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well is this the kind of thing you think that for instance all people share? Is this a fundamental definition of human consciousness or is there only a certain group within a given society that one would label \"neurotic\"?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=310.0,321.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: I got a feeling that this sounded like a culture -- a system in which one goes on doing the same sort of thing, year after year, millions of us. And we know it isn't going work very well; we know it leads either to warfare or to slums or something of the kind, but we go on. Is this neurosis within your definition?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Well that would seem to be in some way the general human condition. [Laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: [Laughs] A general human condition.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Yes.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Ah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=321.0,349.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well there seem to be another point, is that when we label somebody, or societal pattern as neurosis, are we speaking ourselves outside of that, so we are viewing them, like animals in a zoo. That we are not captured in the zoo; therefore we can take pleasure in that and enjoy and see that's their behavior or whatever. Or, are we talking to *ourselves*? And I think that reference point is seem to be necessary for people to realize, that... I mean how do we know, you know, how whole thing's beginning? And that seem to be question that maybe we could discuss, with everybody.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=349.0,396.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: The first time you do it it's not neurosis, eh?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: It would seem. One's trying out something, and one could suppose one doesn't know the outcome.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=396.0,406.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 3]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well what is the standard for neurosis would you say? I mean it would seem like it might vary from culture to culture. That in one culture a certain kind of behavior might not fit the norm, and be labeled neurosis, whereas in another culture that same kind of behavior might be regarded as normal. And that seems to be the whole definitional point at the outset, is what *is* it that determines that what is sane and what is neurotic behavior? What is normal and what is aberrational?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=406.0,432.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Well it has a good Occidental definition attached to it: \"If it works it's not neurosis.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: I--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: But it's got to work, yes?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Well--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: If it doesn't work and you do it over and over again, and then it's neurosis.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Still there it seems to be in the defined [INAUDIBLE]--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: There's a pragmatic sort of--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=432.0,447.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: I feel that the point of view from which it's being labeled, as Rinpoche suggested--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: --perhaps needs to be specified. And I-- my intention really was speaking from the point of view of the suffering, of the person moving toward what he wants, or what he supposes he wants.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=447.0,470.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: There seems to be a grid of success and failure, working or not working. And I'm wondering when you say, Gregory, \"if it works or doesn't work,\" it seems to determine whether or not it's neurotic, what--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: It's his definition, not mine. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well, anyone who wishes to speak to this point I think-- I'm very curious as to what constitutes \"it works.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Ah! \"It works\" means it makes money--\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: --it gets in the newspapers, it gets a Nobel Prize.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: I see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=470.0,509.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well that's only in *our* culture. But how about the cultures that you've investigated alternatively, I mean do they have other kinds of success patterns, that would mean that different kinds of behavior would be justified?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I don't know a New Guinea word for \"neurosis.\" Is there a Tibetan word for \"neurosis\", Rinpoche?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I think there are dozens of them. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Dozens of them! [Laughs; Trungpa Rinpoche laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: But none of them said exactly \"neurosis\" as simple as that, but--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Mhmm.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: --there's \"half\", \"partial\", \"absolute\"; all kinds of things.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Mhmm.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well that raises actually--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: \"Samsara.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Mhmm. Well that's one of them. [Laughs; laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=509.0,557.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 4]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: That's to me an interesting point, as to whether or not neurosis, even to talk about neurosis, is not perhaps maybe a self-conscious exercise of a self-conscious culture, and that perhaps in primitive cultures, which are perhaps not involved in the same kind of self-examination, neurosis doesn't exist as a concept because they simply don't relate to that kind of self-examination. Is that a possibility?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=557.0,582.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Well they can say, \"You know Joe, Joe's nuts.\" And as far as I know, pretty well every civilization in the world has a word which means \"nuts\", \"insane.\" And these are non-technical words. But if the behavior is sufficiently peculiar, if the people on whom the joke is being played by the guy who is nuts, can't see the joke, because there's always you know a little bit of that there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=582.0,625.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Mhmm. Well it seems that this kind of thing of \"he's nuts, Joe's nuts\"--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: --applies to some kind of situation of *extraordinary* eccentricity or bizarre behavior of some kind. Does that mean that the general run of folk, general run of people, whether they be -- whatever country they happen to be natives of, are devoid of neurosis? That we're sane...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=625.0,655.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: We're sane if we follow the general cultural norms, and those that don't are insane, is that what you're suggesting?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=655.0,661.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well, what I would *like* to suggest is -- at this point if it's possible I would like to introduce the Buddhist point of view. [Laughter] Which seems to be that-- it seems to define itself in relation to \"Buddha\", and \"Buddha\" seems to mean \"The Awakened One.\" And since Buddha decided to teach all the people who are not awakened ones, about being awake, it seems that from his point of view, everyone was in some way neurotic, everyone who wasn't so-called \"awake.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Mhmm. And from their point of view?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: From their point of view.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=661.0,713.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: I mean, William Blake for example was assumed to be insane by a great many people. He undoubtedly was as nearly awake as any Occidental has achieved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=713.0,726.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well I think we have to throw away-- I would like to throw away a social definition, a social norm, so to speak, and suggest that we're all normally abnormal -- or most of us in any case are normally abnormal. And that sanity is something doesn't require somebody's stamp of approval, but is self-substantiating. If that's possible--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=726.0,755.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Do you want to equate sanity with Buddhistic awake-ness?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Yeah. [Laughs; laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=755.0,763.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 5]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Okay! Now if we were all awake -- which I presume only one of us is... [Laughs; laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I think all of us! [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: That if we were all awake, we'd be awfully different from each other, wouldn't we? I mean we'd become in a way even *more* different from each other by virtue of being waked up, than we are just by way of being sort of conforming members of a culture, and holding down jobs in universities and all that stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=763.0,796.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well in the absence of that experiment having taken place, I would say that it's difficult to know just what might happen, as to whether people would begin developing all kinds of brilliantly differentiated plumage, or whether they would remain a general gray; I mean I don't think we--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=796.0,818.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Wait, I think there is probably evidence that there's-- I don't know about the Tibetan evidence, but there must be enough Zen evidence, to know that people who've-- that satori on the whole makes people more different from each other, more idiosyncratic, more free to be idiosyncratic perhaps.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=818.0,840.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: I would like to take a shot at placing--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: --the way we seem to use neurosis in this culture within the Buddhist frame of references as Michael suggests. If the Buddha taught in fact that the human condition in some way involves some form of suffering, in the unawakened state, the first learning task in a sense for the Buddhists seems to be getting in touch in some way with the fact of his discontent, or of his suffering.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Mhmm.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: And that from that point of view, the people who in this culture we label \"neurotic\" are those who have become aware of their suffering. So one who becomes aware of his pain--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: But he's not merely *in* pain, but *aware* of the pain.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Aware of the pain.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Mhmm.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: And goes seeking some kind of relief from his pain. He's the one who we-- to whom we apply the label \"neurotic.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=840.0,913.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well, there might be two cases. There might be the case of people who are submerging themselves in the general pattern, for fear of revealing their pain. And there might be those, for another case, who make themselves obvious by running away from their pain and not acknowledging their pain, develop exotic manners of behavior, as a sort of self-existing diversion from that, from that sort of difficulty of relating to the awkwardness of situations unfolding.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=913.0,960.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I think question that we probably should think about it, is that are we purely talking about black and white, or are we talking about there's a possibility of light gray and dark gray? And I think that's very important; otherwise there's no way of wakening.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Not to mention the whole spectrum of colors--\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: --maybe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=960.0,990.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah. And I think maybe we should look into that possibility. And which seem to be what's known in the Buddhist tradition as \"the path\" -- is the tendency goes forward, towards the awake, and semi-awake, and half awake, and not at all awake, but there *is* wakeful quality within the confusion at the same time. And in even in the wakeful aspect there is a limit of confusion, because that's why the wakeful people can transmit their message to the confused ones. And there is a lot of interchange, a lot of room takes place. And maybe we should talk in terms of intermediary, if there is a possibility. Rather than define or people or label them, is \"he's okay, so far,\" and \"he's nuts\", you know it's--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=990.0,1046.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 6]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Rinpoche, what would you say is the confusion? Do you think confusion takes place in the mind of peoples in all cultures? Is it simply a matter of relating to the environment and the system in which you live, and being able to relate to that properly? Or is there some more sort of transcendent, universal notion of confusion?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1046.0,1067.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I would say both. That there is the fundamental freedom from confusion takes place. At the same time there is a confusion of communication, language, behavior, which is not particularly the absolute thing; it's somewhat secondary thing. You might enlightened or wakeful chimpanzee, in his own right, but as far as human beings concerned a chimpanzee is just simply chimpanzee, and hadn't made up to level of human being.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1067.0,1115.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Can we look at it then as levels of confusion? The most noteworthy level of confusion being someone who we would term neurotic because he's overtly peculiar. And levels of confusion... I don't know if it's fair to say that neurotics are the most confused; I don't know if that's fair at all.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Mhmmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1115.0,1145.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I think that there's a level that neurotics who speaks truth, who experience the truth, of his own neurosis or her own neurosis, are somewhat awake, in his own right, in his own world. And he is completely frustrated that he can't transmit such truth to somebody else; that's why he's so aggravated. There is that possibility. And so as the so-called ordinary people, have also a problem relating with other ordinary people, because he doesn't share -- or the other person doesn't share -- his own state of mind. And might call him \"nuts\", but actually that's just way to aggravate somebody else, to bring him closer, so that there's some communication takes place. So it's very tricky game that people seem to play.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1145.0,1203.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 7]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: That seems to bring up the example of Dostoevsky's THE IDIOT. I mean in that novel there was a perfect example, it seems, of the kind of thing you're talking about: about someone who had a clear vision in his own world, and had tremendous difficulty communicating that to a world which operated on different standards, which I think we could say are confused standards. And he could not communicate his clarity to that world and as a result he was labeled \"nuts\", \"the idiot\", and--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah, I think we--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1203.0,1231.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: --that raises the whole question as to whether or not it's possible to be clear in a world in which the other people in your own cultural environment do not share your same vision. I mean is it possible for instance to be quote \"sane\", in an insane society?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: [UNCLEAR: Bad? Bat?]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1231.0,1250.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Well perhaps if we included in the conception of sanity, from that point of view, the capacity to communicate, then we wouldn't confuse the clarity that the neurotic has with clarity per se. There is some element of clarity, some clear seeing, involved in the suffering of that condition, but it's still quite confused.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Because it can't--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1250.0,1279.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: I don't like this word \"confused.\" I'm not clear that people are *ever* confused. I mean I think they have various false premises on which they work. When they work on those premises they usually work very, very *clearly* on those premises. But they certainly never behave randomly. Indeed the first definition you gave was of repetitive behavior.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: With increasing cunning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1279.0,1308.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: With perhaps increasing cunning, with increasing suffering maybe, but very regular sort of stuff that you can define in a textbook almost. Not confused, not random in any sense. And I'm not sure that there is any mental trouble or pathology which is really random.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Well--\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: What--\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Would you have a sense-- I'm sorry.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Please.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1308.0,1334.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Would you have a sense of what the confused quality might be then? And there is-- I see the clarity that you're referring to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1334.0,1344.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Well I've worked mainly with people who are, I suppose, more far gone; therefore more clear in many ways in their-- what their at -- with psychotics rather than with neurotics. With psychotics certainly, what they're doing is clear. [Bernie Weitzman laughs] It may not go-- it may go against the grain so far as *you're* concerned, especially if you happen to be grown close to them, or you happen to try to organize them. As an administrator or employer or something, you know, you can't say \"they're nuts,\" because you-- *you* cannot afford to look down the avenues of--\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Why is that?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: --assumption.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1344.0,1386.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Why is is that the psychiatrist in that situation you described, \"can't afford to look down those avenues\"?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1386.0,1395.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Well we had a very nice psychiatrist, whom I became very friendly with afterwards, in one of the Macy meetings. And he gave us a little lecture on schizophrenia: he said that the psychotic -- he was a Dutchman -- is disordered. [Laughter] And I asked whether he meant \"random.\" And he said, yes, he meant random. \"Well, by random, could you give us an example of random behavior, I'm not sure I ever saw any.\" \"Yes,\" says our friend, \"For example I say to the patient, 'what is the difference between a ladder and a staircase?' And the patient says 'stockings.' That is random,\" says our psychiatrist. And I said to him I think, \"What was random? It seemed to me, doctor, he was talking about the difference -- sexual difference -- between himself and you.\" And the psychiatrist sort of blew bubbles at that. And I said, \"Well do we have to spell it out?\" \"Yes, please spell it out.\" All right. \"Well is it so that in the Dutch language, you call a run in a lady's stocking 'a ladder'?\" And he said, \"Yes, that's right!\" [Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1395.0,1483.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it's silly when it is spelled out. And so it spells out, you see, that the patient knows that the doctor is asking a question, to which the doctor knows the answer. Why does he do that? They're the devil you know, psychotics, they know these things. Why does a doctor ask a question which *he* doesn't know the answer and the patient might not? It is to prove a difference between the doctor and the patient.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1483.0,1515.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well I mean--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: --but still that clarity on the part of the patient, in reference to \"ladders\", seems to be saying--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: And sex.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: And sex -- was the patient a lady?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1515.0,1527.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: The difference. No the difference you see between ladder and a staircase is holes.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Uh huh, I see.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Holes in your stockings.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: I see.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: And holes in the stocking, and so on and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1527.0,1537.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well I mean, is that clarity-- would you say that clarity is-- on the part of the patient is trivial?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: No! Oh no, it is pathology. He shouldn't know those [laughing] things.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: He shouldn't know those things. Well what would you say--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1537.0,1551.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: A graduate student you see knows those things, but he hides them when he deals with a psychologist.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well what would-- well--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1551.0,1559.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: I mean if neurotics are clear...\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I'm not sure they are. Psychotics are clear. They've gone through to a point at which they're now clear, that the only thing that matters is this between the people. Do you see when he says \"stockings\", he's not answering the original question. He won't do that. What he does is to say, \"What sort of a thing are you doing to me Doctor?\" And that's always what he's talking about. And that isn't what normal people talk about. They hide their--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1559.0,1593.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 8]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well in your terminology then what would be the difference between \"neurotic\" and \"psychotic\"?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1593.0,1600.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Well I don't use the word \"neurotic\" much, I confess. I would use it for a phobia for example, for an error in learning. If you learn that elevators are dangerous, then you will refuse to visit-- enter an elevator and being gone up a skyscraper; you'll have to go up the stairs. That's a sort of rather simple piece of error.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Gregory?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1600.0,1626.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: I wonder what you would think of Jung's attitude toward phobias? He wasn't willing to label them as \"neuroses.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: He was not willing to-- you mean at all, yes?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Not at all.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah, I don't think he had really anything to do with what we're talking about: a very specific sort of narrow, particular--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1626.0,1644.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Well they seem to me to have a certain clarity--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: --of focus, simply because of that... focus. Jung tells two stories, which persuaded him that labeling a phobia as neurosis was a serious error of preconception. He tells one story about a patient of his who had a phobia about birds. And one day they went out for a walk in the garden, and a bird suddenly flew out of the tree and stabbed the patient right in the chest; didn't hurt her seriously, but was a serious abrasion.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: He really did!\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Really did.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah. [Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1644.0,1687.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: And he tells another story about a patient of his who was phobic about walking up stairs in public buildings, and was subsequently assassinated on the stairs of a public building.So--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: --Jung was persuaded that those fears upon which neuroses are based, always contain some form of intelligence that we may not be able to understand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1687.0,1714.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: There is an intelligence about the future, and information about the future?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: In some sense perhaps.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I knew an O.B. man, an obstetrician, who lived up in Northern California, the Redwood area, and when he drove cars he used to overtake from time to time big lumber cargos, with enormous trunks of redwood on them. He had a fear that a redwood trunk would roll off one of those things onto his car. So he had a big steel rib put over the top of the car. And about three months later, a redwood tree rolled onto his car and he survived. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Is that a success story? [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Well I mean I'm just helping Dr. Jung out. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: The patient might have worn an armor plated...\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: That's right, that's right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1714.0,1779.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 9]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well, I'm still not clear on the definition between \"neurotic\" and \"psychotic\", because I think in the popular definition at any rate, there seems to be some notion of the neurotic as somehow slightly off, in terms of normal behavior, but the psychotic is somehow gone beyond a certain kind of intangible point, where he is no longer in any real communication with the world that normal people share. And I wonder if that's the kind of definition that *you* would give for \"neurotic\" and \"psychotic\", because if that's so--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1779.0,1814.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Well I would say that it is usually terrifying, to look down the avenue of the psychotics' premises.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Why is that?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Well, they know and feel -- or feel rather than know-- a heck of a lot of things which we would much rather they *didn't* know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1814.0,1842.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well what kind of things? Why are they terrifying?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Well they know why I've got my hands in that position, at that moment, why you got your hands in that position. And they can look around this group and know what's happening.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1842.0,1860.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well is that what we would define as \"clarity\" then?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: This is absolutely terrifying. This is clarity, yes.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: This is clarity.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1860.0,1866.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: But then what's the problem?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: The problem is that other people don't like that. [Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1866.0,1872.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well are we suggesting that then we should all develop that kind of psychotic awareness?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Why?\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I mean why not just live in the suburbs like other people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1872.0,1884.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: That was what Bernie I thought was describing in terms of suffering; that somehow living in the suburbs like other people gave birth to a kind of pain and suffering psychologically that, although it's covered, we all may be in Thoreau's words \"quietly desperate\"; there's still the sense that something's wrong. And I'm not quite clear what you're suggesting. I mean, is the solution to go into that other world which is so clear and yet at the same time is not able to communicate and relate with the world of everyone else, or is there a third alternative?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1884.0,1918.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Would you [INAUDIBLE] disentangle us, Rinpoche? [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I want to hear more about it. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Hmm?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I want to hear more about it. [Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1918.0,1931.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 10]\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: I'd like to suggest that maybe we could talk for a couple of minutes about what people are after, and what they want.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah. Very good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1931.0,1944.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: It seems that there are different strategies involved perhaps with the person you call neurotic and the person you call psychotic. It seems to me there's a different form of blindness involved. It seems to me that there's a neurotic--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Wait. A difference sort of vision?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Right.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Simultaneously, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1944.0,1963.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: The neurotic, it seems to me, going down his path, is going after -- as far as his upfront consciousness is concerned -- he's going after something which is not really what he wants. He's not--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1963.0,1976.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Not but really, but all right, yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: He's not quite willing to know what it is that he wants, and so his attack is devious, and his energy isn't really being applied in the direction of his desires.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1976.0,1993.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well why is that? Why can't he see that pattern happening?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Because it's too shameful, to know what he really wants. And it seems to me that the psychotic-- my experience is very limited, but in the cases that I've had some close contact with, that what it is that's wanted is known with clarity, but denied. So that, I mean a very gross example in a way was a young woman I worked with, who was continually persuaded that any man she met was trying to turn her on sexually. She had no sexual desire. But her sensitivity to seduction was so acute, and so keen--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: And accurate?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Accurate. Absolutely accurate. And she had the knowing that you describe and an incredible keenness and sharpness of vision. But I would say she also was too ashamed to know what she wanted. And had gone past I think the neurotic game of obscuring the whole area of desire, was dealing with the area of desire, but still dealing with it on that interface, of \"this is not *my* desire. The desire exists and becomes the subject of my intelligence and my energy.\" But a different kind of ignorance, a different kind of turning away from--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1993.0,2101.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Do you want to say that the dominant word perhaps in that whole statement about this gal, was the word \"my\"? \"It's not *my* desire.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Right.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I mean this is the-- one of the hotspots of psychosis. The first person pronoun begins to be \"not it.\" In which they are of course very closely related to Buddhistic positions that have discovered that the ego is a phony. [Laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nWe, in our civilization, say of people who do not believe in an ego organization of behavior, we say they're psychotic. And you say they're awakened. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well, now wait a minute. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: [Laughs] I will wait.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2101.0,2170.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 11]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: There seems to be an enormous desire on the part of practicing therapists in general, to accommodate the world of-- to accommodate the world and the personages of people who are supposedly psychotic or neurotic. And to in every way credit their situation.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: That's one theme, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2170.0,2199.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHEAL KOHN: And it seems to be a very strong theme. On the other hand there seems to be an overwhelming fact that this is maybe mollifying somewhat, softening the edge of somewhat, that there's something wrong, dreadfully wrong, with these people; there's some kind of difficulty. And I mean the whole force of \"enlightened therapy\" at this point seems to be to recognize the validity of their situation. But that seems to me a hell of a copout, in some ways, in relation to the fact that they become cases in the first place, to that-- can be then accommodated. But they're cases in some way; there's something wrong.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2199.0,2254.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: They're cases, it seems to me, in the sense that their intelligence is not openly acknowledged by them, and applied to the living situation. Their intelligence is a secret. So the-- it seems to me that the therapeutic attitude, which attempts to communicate to the patient: \"What you know is in fact true. Your intelligence is active and precise. It doesn't have to be hidden by you, it can be employed by you. You can know what you know, and still live in the world. Your knowledge doesn't make you a pariah; you don't have to hide.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2254.0,2299.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Very well. But in relation to the situation of the therapist who wishes to offer a road to the person in difficulty, let us say, to participate with his intelligence and his insights in a broader situation, the difficulty-- the great difficulty seems to be, what is it that we're offering then? What is it that we're providing for them to participate in, that they're secreting themselves away from, at the moment? It seems that there's some difficulty on the point of-- from the point of view of the therapist, of what world is he offering them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2299.0,2349.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Is he saying, \"But look, yeah I can hear what you're saying. Yes, *but*. Because you shouldn't say that, or you should get away from the idea that's the way to talk. And I'll tell you how to behave like a common sense human being. And with a little practice you'll manage it or other.\" That's one-- that is one of the therapeutic attitudes.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Right. The other one is you listen to this stuff that's coming out of him that he's saying, and you say not \"yes\", but you say \"yes *and*\". And you're saying essentially, \"Go *through* this whole tangle that you're in, and see where you get on the other side.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Without--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: There are both sorts of psychiatrists are practicing up and down the country. The majority of the \"yes but-ers\"--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2349.0,2400.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: What's the carrot?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY KOHN: The carrot?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Wisdom. You mean the carrot for the \"yes and-ers\"?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Is wisdom, or enlightenment, or something like it.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: And is that proffered by the therapist as something definite or is-- does he leave that an open question?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: No, he doesn't tell the patient usually that's what he's talking about.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: But does he have a \"that\" in mind that he's talking about?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Oh yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2400.0,2432.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well is that what the patient picks up on, and which prompts his resistance at that point?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: The patient at that point is likely to panic of course, yes.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: He feels like he's a pawn in somebody else's game.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: He thinks he's now being cheated, or he can feel himself cheated, yes. \"This guy is going to *use* my symptoms -- even to my own good, but essentially that there's a...\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2432.0,2458.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 12]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well that seems to bring back the basic of question of communication. I mean, how is it possible for two people to communicate across these kinds of games? I mean, do we even have an idea that radical that it *is* possible for two people to interrelate in a way which is so open that neither one nor the other is actually trying to con the other one into his own game, or his own structure? I mean, do you think that's possible in psychology?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Well he can say so. I mean, \"what I'm trying to con you into...\"\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Right, I mean, that seems to be the critical point to me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2458.0,2494.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: This *is* a critical point, yes.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Right, that the-- one can own one's con game, and one can communicate one's willingness to be caught in one's con game. That one doesn't have to deny the fact of what one is doing with a psychotic who's going to catch one every time. So one can own it. And that seems to establish some ground of communication.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Ground of communication.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Between the psychiatrist and the patient.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: [INAUDIBLE WORDS] That's a good one. [Laughs; laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2494.0,2535.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: When the patient says to you, \"Are you a Boy Scout?\" You know this is big advance. [Laughter; laughs] I mean yes, you are.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Boy Scout in the sense that you're trying to play the game straight?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: You're trying to do him good, which is none of your goddamn business.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2535.0,2558.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 13]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well I mean is there any way that we can apply these kinds of experiences, between psychiatrist and patient to the world at large; is there anything that comes out of this to talk about how to be an ordinary person in the world, or--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Do you want to be an ordinary person in the world?\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: We do or we don't?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I mean, do you?\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Do you want *him* to be?\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: --do you think that's a false premise?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: False in the sense that really you don't want it--\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well is there something about this Boy Scout mentality-\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: --or is--\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: --of trying to encourage him to kind of relate to the world--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: There is something screwy about that, yeah. [INAUDIBLE]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: --and there's something that's a problem there.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: That's right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2558.0,2597.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well do you think it's possible for a personality then to develop its full spontaneous possibilities, and at the same time fit into society in some way? Or is he going to be an irremediable eccentric and somehow who is bound to be ostracized, and if he doesn't *quite* be cunning enough, eventually wind up institutionalized?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2597.0,2615.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 14]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Well let's go back to the vocabulary. We started with the word \"neurosis\" -- a word I wouldn't use it, if I could help it. We've now moved on the whole to the word \"psychosis.\" Now, what are the other words, of the same order of abstraction as these? Now is--\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well let's take a simple example.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: --\"humor\" of the same order of abstraction as psychosis, for example? Is \"religion\" of the same order of abstraction as psychosis? Is \"art\" of the same order of abstraction as psychosis? What are the alternatives? Where does a word like this belong in a total spectrum of human life, really? I mean, not handling it is something you can put into a mental hospital and get rid of, but handling it is part of the ordinary living business of being a living human being.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2615.0,2687.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Are you suggesting that psychosis is a word-- work of art?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I'm suggesting that it-- if you wanted to have a world without psychosis, you would find you've got on your hands a world without art and without humor. That there's somehow sort of going hand in hand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2687.0,2708.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well it sounds like in this kind of terminology that the word \"sane\" or the word \"sanity\" is somehow the fall guy. That \"sane\" or \"sanity\" is being made the equivalent of kind of a very limited sort of ordinary awareness and psychosis--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: In our culture I think that is so, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2708.0,2726.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well, is there any radical possibility of reversing that terminology and beginning to talk about \"sanity\" in a very positive way, without at the same time doing injustice to the clarity of neurosis? I mean would it be possible to talk about \"sanity\" as something very positive rather than some sort of cop out to your own possibilities? I mean do we have to give that up essentially, you know, to say that sanity has somehow been bought by the \"squares\", as you put it at one point?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Well suppose... how should I say? If I achieved something like quote, \"enlightenment\", as I understand the word, I think I would be both more clear about what it is to be alive, and be with people and love and hate and all that, but my ability to do that will be less threatened by conforming to the ordinary nonsense of everyday life.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2726.0,2806.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well I think what I'm really asking is this: is there a way to relate to ordinary, everyday life which is non-conforming and at the same time transcends that kind of trap, of being pocketed or ostracized as some sort of aberration?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: As long as the university administration don't get after you, or the C.I.A. or one of these other bodies, yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: You know it seems that following any individual path--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Then how are you going to get grants for your research?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2806.0,2833.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Mhmm. Well of-- I think that is in fact the problem. [Laughter; laughs] I think the problem on any individual path in terms of the relationship to society, is that you're going to produce some work of art, be it a psychosis or painting; there's going to be some perhaps expressive form representing your individuality, and then society is going to look at it and say, \"I like it\" or \"I don't like it,\" \"I'm going to support you for your individuality,\" or \"I'm going to hospitalize you for your individuality.\" Again the-- I would like to bring it back to what feels to me like a concrete fact of what people want. And it seems to me that all of these strategies are involved with attempts to fulfill some kind of an idea of human happiness, satisfaction, security of some kind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2833.0,2902.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 15]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well just on that point, I mean do you think there is a possibility of a human awareness without strategy?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: [Laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: I think so--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Don't--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2902.0,2911.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: I think people would have to somehow begin to explore the possibility that they could experience the fact that they want something. That it isn't shameful to have an emotional life. And that an emotional life is not something to hide from oneself. And that one could relate with one's emotional life directly. Not hiding if from oneself, and not necessarily hiding it from society; that one could move with some directness. Risking of course the fact that society might look at one, following the path of one's emotional life, and say, \"We don't want this.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2911.0,2963.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well suppose you manage to have an emotional life, and without apologizing to anyone for that -- is that a success story? So I mean, so what?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2963.0,2977.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: What's a success story?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: So you have-- well I mean we--\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: It's a question.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: --we seem to be--\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: It just seems to me to be a precondition for beginning to explore who one in fact is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2977.0,2989.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: For exploring -- is that a model of where we ought to be going, is finding out who one is? Or...\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Only if one feels that one's attempts to satisfy one's desires are perpetually being frustrated by the fact that one is moving in a direction quite opposite to the direction one would like to move in.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well let's say, let's say for just for hypothesis, that one manages to satisfy all one's desires -- [laughing] I mean, that sounds--\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: I'm not postulating satisfaction--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: You wouldn't get up at four o'clock in the morning and write books.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: [Laughing] You wouldn't get up at four o'clock in the morning and write books. Uh huh. Well [laughing]... satisfaction, satisfaction of one's desires, in some way, I mean against some background, [UNCLEAR: egos? echoes?] is almost trivial. I mean if one satisfies one's desires, so what? If one gets up and writes books at four o'clock in the morning, and creates some cultural monument, so what? What's the score? Why is that-- why is either one of them constitute a-- in our discussions [INAUDIBLE WORDS] .","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2989.0,3068.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 16]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I mean take a look at the heroes of our culture. What-- who really has made our culture?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Nietzsche.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: There's Christ, there's Leonardo -- who else?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well I don't know. There seem to be a lot of little cultures involved here, and who could be the-- I mean it could be Eugene B. Debs, you know. [Laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah, they're pretty odd bunch of men, frankly. [Laughter] Newton, with a locked box in his college rooms at Trinity College, Cambridge. His public life entirely concerned with, you know, astronomy and gravity and all these nice--\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: What was in his locked box, [laughing]do you know?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yes!\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: What was it?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Kabbalistic manuscripts. What's that chemical stuff?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Alchemy.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Alchemical material. Gnostic material. All the sort of stuff that Jung would have loved. Why Jung didn't bid when the box was opened about twenty years ago, on all the manuscripts? Many of them copied by Newton himself. And he knew, that one side of his personality was presentable, and the other side wasn't. And he played it straight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3068.0,3157.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: So the model of success as I'm-- getting to-- beginning to seem to pick up the underlying strategy here is to [laughter; laughs] satisfy one's desires and be presentable at the same time.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I don't know about this word \"desires.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: And I don't know about the word \"satisfy.\" [Laughter] Knowing and satisfying are not necessarily the same.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: \"Dance the dance which one has to dance,\" and at the same time take a bus to get to the dance hall. Or something of the kind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3157.0,3196.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well you know what it sounds to me like, is in a lecture that you gave recently, you talked about the right side of the brain and the left side of the brain. That the right side of the brain somehow had that sense of sort of intuitive reality, and the left side of the brain was primarily concerned with the prose presentation of personality, in a respectable way. And you talked about the primary value of somehow making a bridge between those two, in terms of love or communication.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Right. Correct. Yeah, and we know almost nothing about that bridge. But that bridge is-- if we knew about that, maybe up in those [UNCLEAR: lamaseries?], they know about that bridge, I don't know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3196.0,3239.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 17]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well it sounds to me like what in the Buddhist tradition is referred to as \"compassion.\" And compassion is not simply a state of mind, but also a vehicle for awareness and a vehicle for communicating with the world. I thought maybe Rinpoche, you might [laughing] have something to say on that.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Me? [Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3239.0,3264.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: I mean are there concepts that we can work with that make this sort of thing possible, of fully realizing your personality and at the same time, communicating with the rest of the world? Or are we doomed to a kind of ostracized individuality, like Socrates or whatever; who some people recognize as wise and his own culture thought should be condemned to--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: He sure left an enduring karma around.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: That's true. But is there a model for us, for the ordinary person in society, to act? Is there some way to kind of fully explore your own personality, without at the same time winding up in an institution?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3264.0,3309.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I think question is not so much of what we can do, to ourselves particularly. But question seem to be is the how we could work with the environment; things around us. You have a psychotic there, and psychotic is actually overwhelming you, because of that environment *you* have created, and the psychotic has upper hand over you. And could challenge you from that point of view.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Is it the psychotic part of you, or the psychotic individual vis-a-vis?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3309.0,3353.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: No the-- yes, psychotic part of you, how you create your world. And psychotics will pick up that message, and in the name of your particular personality, and attacks you. And that seem to be one of the problems, that we are not so much concern of particularly developing individuals, but developing environment. And that seem to be, you know, goes with the idea-- the concept of compassion. Is not so much of that you should be a member of the Red Cross organization or anything like that particularly, but that the environment could be worked on. Rather than get rid of that irritating problem that you involved. And the problem isn't actually the problem from that point of view.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3353.0,3407.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Problem is kind of lead, that you can work with the things around you. Which is hell of a lot of job for somebody to ask you do that, but that's what I suppose known as mahayana Buddhist tradition, is the bodhisattva action. That a person doesn't have to be corrected, but environment could be rearranged, reorganized. In the very simple situation, rather than, you know, sweeping the state-- city, or make world as liveable and good, ecologically clean and everything. But there is some environment that is workable. And once that environment's be seem to be dealt, then the individuality slowly conforms itself to it slowly. By not being pushed into particular dogma or particular idea.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3407.0,3471.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: But you're--this is working with somebody who is out of step, so to speak, and trying to get them into step.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3471.0,3483.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I think this is a question of working with somebody who is slightly confused, or slightly distorted, or fully awake, whatever. [Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3483.0,3500.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: What's the call for working with someone who is fully awake?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3500.0,3504.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well still that they are-- I mean that's the precisely one of the big deals about Buddha, for instance: that he was concerned how he could present his teaching, he has lots of things to say, but he wait for seven weeks, after the attainment of enlightenment; how he could create environment so that he could say his things he wanted to say. I mean he could say, you know, he could stand in the village square and he could vomit out the whole thing he had learned. But he didn't do that. And he was concerned about how is appropriate, and how could be done.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3504.0,3539.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Then from a-- would you say that from this point of view that -- or from Buddha's point of view that nearly everyone was out of step, that there was something to be taught to everyone?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3539.0,3551.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I mean even if you're correct, you are perfectly, you know, in balance. But still that there's another thing to work, which is the environment around you. That somebody who achieved highest attainment still have to relate with bread and butter, and roof. And there are lot of truth in that; that's the hardest thing. Is the creation of the sacred ground, so to speak, which is been the problem, rather than the sacredness itself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3551.0,3593.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 18]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well so Buddha would not be so much trying to correct a psychotic, as who from what we've said seems to have some kind of clarity, but to make him able to work with his environment?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Mhmm.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: So it's not--\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: But consequently that's the main-- terminology for that is \"transmutation\". That transmutation can take place -- when there is the chemicals around it, that the lead could change into gold. Not because lead *is* gold particularly -- if you try to struggle with that, it's never possible. But you have to create the chemicals, so that possible that lead could change into gold.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well then, what is the difference between lead and gold?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well it's lead is very stubborn, and gold is also very stubborn, [laughter] but different price, and softness and hardness.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Softness and hardness.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: They're both soft.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, one is hard, one is soft, but, you know, it's-- one can never do that just directly, without using chemicals.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHEAL KOHN: There seems to be just a need for some other chemicals involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3593.0,3667.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 19]\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah, it seems, that seem to be a problem we are facing. I mean, this issue has come up for many times, it seemed to be, \"how we can make somebody better, a good person?\" We have a problem with our own children and things like that. And rich people give them lots of money, make them happy, and give them a world around ticket, and whatever. But still, the young child comes back as same as fucked up as before. [Laughter] And it's not that problem, it's problem of environment of some kind, maybe.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Environment of some kind.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well I mean if he gets a world around ticket, ticket around the world, has all kinds of money, then he's okay. Point of view of working with this environment as far as we can tell--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3667.0,3725.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I mean, a person doesn't look at that way, person look at that way, is was that, \"I have a ticket. And I'm taking trips around, visiting all the Sheratons and Hiltons of the universe,\" you know. [Laughter; laughs] And you come back to your apartment, to whatever, you know. I mean the person hasn't related with... no parents would dump their kid in the middle of African desert, because that's regarded as a rejection, socially, culturally. And one shouldn't do such a thing. [Laughs] So the consequently, you know, trying to book the most expensive hotels, in Nairobi or somewhere.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3725.0,3772.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: So there's a necessity to work with the desert, are you saying?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I mean that's seem to be the point, yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: \"Work with the desert.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I mean, not make a big deal of that.[Laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well I mean--\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Deserts or the mountains or snows.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3772.0,3786.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Or would you-- maybe that's some kind of an index, I mean maybe psychotics, for all his apparent clarity in the therapeutic relationship, has some sort of failure, in that he's unwilling to work with the desert of... I don't know what constitutes that desert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3786.0,3805.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well usually psychotics being entertained a great deal by everybody. [Laughter] And they have *endless*, you know, entertainment. They got the help coming from all over the directions. [Laughter] And in turn they feel extremely righteous; quite rightly so.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: They seem to manage their situation quite well.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Well it's a marvelous way of managing the situation.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: But never had that experience the desert, or anything like that; that you actually have to do it yourself.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well I mean this seems to fall into line with my problem about the person who has satisfied desires, who is also very presentable at the same time. That he seems to have arrived at the end point of conventional psychotherapy, and still hasn't dealt with what Rinpoche speaks of as \"the desert.\"\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well Rinpoche also speaks of this notion of the \"crazy wisdom\": something that which is at the one and the same time completely sane and communicative, and totally outrageous.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3805.0,3890.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 20]\r\n\r\n\r\n[starts mid-sentence after gap in video of unknown duration]\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: --feeding process.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Which inspires you, rather than discourages you.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah. Yeah. I mean there is-- nobody is really put on the spot, properly.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: What is the spot?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, it's the total sense of desolation. That you have to work and find out from yourself.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Why is it-- why does the desolation-- what-- why does the desolation come in? Why is there a need for desolation?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, the desolation, because that otherwise there's all kinds of entertainments.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: What was the matter with entertainment?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, that feed further neurosis.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well, what's the matter with the neurosis?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: What's the matter with neurosis?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Yeah. [Laughs; laughter; Trungpa Rinpoche laughs] What *is* the matter with neurosis anyhow?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well what's the matter with the neurosis seem to be is, it's incomplete, totally.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: It leaks. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: It leaks. [Laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Now you're talking. [Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3890.0,3952.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 21]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: So how does one bring the psychotic back then, Gregory, from that point of view where he has experienced the desolation of his own insight, and how does one bring him back to communicate more openly with the rest of the world? Like that story you told about the person who told you as a patient that, \"I've been living in your world from 1920 to 1943, and I *don't* like it. And I refuse to come back.\" I mean how do you deal with that situation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3952.0,3980.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Well this is the question which I passed to Frieda Fromm-Reichmann, who is the great therapist of psychotics. And she said, \"Yes, I once had a patient who said something like that. And I said, 'But I never promised you a rose garden.'\"\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Hmm. [Trungpa Rinpoche and Gregory Bateson laugh]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3980.0,4004.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: But the relationship between the satisfaction, and desires, and the desert, as Jung described it, is that-- and the problem with the psychotic for him as well, that we have a preconception about what *will* satisfy our desires. And unless we have successfully tasted those satisfactions, and come to the conclusion that those satisfactions still leave a leaky vessel, we'll never be willing to face the desert, and explore our own way. So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4004.0,4054.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I suppose you could say that there's a need for some kind of guidance. It's up to the point of the guidance. The guidance-- the guide gives person a certain kind of help, that is very transparent. Still not perfect. But at certain point that guide begin to give some kind of help, which is beyond himself. And sends the person into the desert. It wasn't a strategy, it was accident, but it took place. And then, [laughs] sooner or later, that person who's in desert have to pull himself or herself together. It could be any kind of desert, you know, not particularly literal sense, but--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4054.0,4128.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well Rinpoche, how can the psychiatrist do that, with a person who is in the desert of psychosis? An incredibly lonely world, like a hell realm where their own insight can't communicate with other people and they're caught in that place where they can't communicate with any other living beings.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well that's the part of the entertainment, that they're doing.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well how can you cut that compassionately, from the role of psychiatrist, without being completely cold and rejecting?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: It's not rejecting; it's *enormous* acceptance. To the extent it's *so* cool and refreshing.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well what do you *do*, to welcome them into that world?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well there's no guidelines, prescriptions of course, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4128.0,4170.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 22]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well I have a slightly different problem. What's the difference between somebody who has successfully pulled up his socks, so to speak -- from the point of view of society, and has every sort of reinforcement, of a big house and all kinds of money and creative things happening of all kinds -- and has never faced the desert, and someone who has faced the desert? What is the-- I don't understand, what is this desert?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Maybe that in itself is the desert.\r\n\r\n\r\n[To Gregory Bateson] You were saying something?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4170.0,4209.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Something said about \"camels not going through eyes of needles.\" \"'Tis harder for a rich man to into enter the kingdom of heaven than...\"\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: That seems to appeal to authority. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I mean, social patterns doesn't make particularly either the desert or city particularly. But it's the context.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well, what's the difference between social patterns and context? I don't know...\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, the context are having lots of money or lots of friend.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: I mean, that seems good: lots of money, lots of friends. I mean that seems wonderful.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah, then if you have lots of them, then it becomes a desert. To the level that they could commit suicide.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well then we would say that then rich people, in that sense, are neurotic.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, pretty much so.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah, yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well then, what *is* it then that we're talking about?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Or for that matter lonely people.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well then, are lonely people, is that what we're talking about when we talk about neurosis? I mean--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4209.0,4282.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I think there is a basic thing, is that when somebody's in a problem, psychological problem, that it is not so much of their problem, it's a problem of environment. That the environment had to be corrected. And when the environment is corrected and worked on, and then, after that, the person would find sense of the desolation -- after the correction been made. Rather than the desert is the cure, or the trick. But you know, there's a lot of stages that a person has to go through.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4282.0,4326.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 23]\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: One therapeutic attitude seems to be, taking the therapist as the environment to be worked upon. That the therapist correcting himself, or working on himself, as the environment for meeting the patient.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Mhmm, I see. [Laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: But there seems to be something that's not quite satisfying about that.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: No, I mean then you are still looking for gadgets, or further entertainments. You know that-- you could-- best you can feed is to be therapist, to encourage their neurosis, you know constantly. I mean that's-- they love it. You know, you have your session, pay money, and you get money's worth and whatever it is. It's delightful. [Laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well how can you cut through that?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Hmm?\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: As a therapist? How can you cut through that?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, you [INAUDIBLE] already. [laughing]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: In what sense? How do you cut that?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: You [UNCLEAR: question of a?] desert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4326.0,4391.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well, from the role of the therapist, how would the therapist be able to throw the person back to that sense of desert without seeming uncompassionate?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well it doesn't have to make, you know--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: What does that matter? TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: What?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I mean \"seeming\" uncompassionate.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well I think that is a problem for a lot of--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Why does-- I mean, drop the word \"seeming\" and the question looks quite different.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah, one doesn't have to, you know--\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Okay.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: --sort of put patchworks at all. It may be very gross.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4391.0,4424.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well Bernie do you think that's a problem for instance for the psychiatrist, being put in that position where he has to somehow attempt to accept, you know, like the neurosis and at the same time work with it, that does that put him on the spot in a certain way, as far as the psychiatrist himself is concerned?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: I think it's basically an untenable position.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: For the psychiatrist.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Mhmm.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: So then, what happens?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: The desert. [Duncan Campbell laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4424.0,4453.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 24]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: All right. There's a place in Syria, on the Mediterranean, where there's a castle which is replete with every kind of pleasure garden. And there is the ocean to bathe in and refresh oneself. And the sultan once inhabited this spot, and he had every kind of person come into his court, providing all kinds of culture, and delightful situations of all kinds. And stretching out actually right behind this area are the sands of a desert, stretching towards Palestine. So, why would one ever leave this castle? I mean what's the point?\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: You're asking me?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Mhmm. [Laughs; Trungpa Rinpoche laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: What's your time span? [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: As much time as we need. [Laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: No, I don't mean in that sense. I mean in the sense of, are you content that your units of time, as a living human being, will terminate with each satisfaction?\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: \"Units of time terminate with each satisfaction...\"\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I mean--\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: You mean it goes on after that?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: It goes on after that, yes.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well, I mean--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4453.0,4548.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Now it-- I mean the definition as I understand it of entertainment, as Rinpoche's been using the word, is that the \"reinforcement\" -- as these damn psychologists call it [laughter; laughs] -- is within the immediate time span of the action which adds the reinforcement, so to speak. You see, and you get an endless payoff. And you never build up any real intensity or any real dissatisfaction, or indeed any real creativity.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well, I mean, who asked for creativity?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: And the only thing that lengthens your-- that makes you go out into that desert is the end, an elongated time span of some kind.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: But there's a complication there, Gregory, if I may say so. That if in fact the satisfaction presents itself always in the same time sequence as the desire, then in the moment in which that system fails, one ceases to be attached to it.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Then maybe you go to the desert.\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: But the way it seem -- right -- but the way it seems to work more often, is that one time out of twenty or one one time out of thirty, or one time out of a hundred, the satisfaction--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: It works.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: --occurs in the same time sequence. And then when the satisfaction never comes one just continues reaching for it.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: And you do it over again.\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Right.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Try it again, like the original first definition at the beginning of the--\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Right.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4548.0,4647.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I think it's a long term project. [Laughter] But, it is certain that we know, that when you rush constantly in the pleasure realm, that you want to get out of the Disneyland. A change of some kind.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: So the desert becomes no pleasure, then?\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Sounds like the pleasure becomes the desert.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: This--\r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Pleasure becomes desert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4647.0,4693.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: PART 25]\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: There's a curious business. I don't know how much depression you've lived with -- I have lived with quite a bit -- and the thing which is absolutely fatal, is entertainment. One sort of thinks entertainment would be an escape from depression, and it just isn't. If you want to get away from depression, the thing to do is to go towards classical phonograph records say, or classical literature, rather than towards entertainment literature. Towards art rather than-- there's a difference between those two.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Why do you think entertainment is fatal?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: It becomes tasteless very very quickly.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: But why do you--?\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Somehow plunges you. Because depression is an appetite, becomes then an addiction, and the addiction can never be satisfied, if you let it get addicted towards entertainment. It's like reassuring somebody who's frightened. This does not get rid of their fear; it feeds that fear. You see? If you reassure somebody who's frightened or afraid, you are justifying them in being afraid.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Mhmm.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: And there's something of the same sort with entertainment and satisfaction move, of sort of a more basic satisfaction.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4693.0,4790.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: So, it emerges then that there's satisfaction which goes beyond entertainment.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Yes sir. I believe so. [Looks to Trungpa Rinpoche] \r\n\r\n\r\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Mhmm. [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: But that sounds to me like the psychology of depression, frankly. That one--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: You mean it's not universal? There are people who are not depressed?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Well that one hopes that one could in fact escape the depression, and--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: By going to a psychiatrist?\r\n\r\n\r\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Right. [Laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Or by going deeper into the depression. Or by any number of strategies.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Ah! That, yes!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4790.0,4834.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: And it seems that the-- that any attempt to escape the depression, by going into it or trying to get out of it, presents itself as a neurotic pattern, and one always crashes again into the depression. Because one imagines still that one is capable of pulling one's socks up [laughter] in that sense, you know.\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: I see.\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: So we finally come down to an acceptance of the reality, in which we all live.\r\n\r\n\r\nMICHAEL KOHN: [Laughs] Uh oh--\r\n\r\n\r\nGREGORY BATESON: Famous last words? [Laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: That's actually a lead-in to the question period. [Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4834.0,4875.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40383/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[BOOKMARK: CLOSING REMARKS]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: I thought this might be an appropriate time to open the discussion to the audience, and to see what kind of response that would bring.\r\n\r\n\r\n[GAP IN VIDEO]\r\n\r\n\r\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well I think our time is up, and I'd like to thank you all for being here on \"Open Secret\", a series of discussions taped in Boulder, Colorado by Naropa Institute. Tonight, our topic has been \"Origins of Neurosis\" and I'd like to thank the people that have been with us: Bernie Weitzman, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, Gregory Bateson, and Michael Kohn, and my name is Duncan Campbell and I've been the moderator. Thank you very much.\r\n\r\n\r\n[Chogyam Trungpa Institute - Unedited Verbatim Transcript]\r\n\r\n\r\n[Copyright Diana J. Mukpo All Rights Reserved - Not to be Distributed or Reproduced]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4875.0,4925.52533"}]},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["19740724VCTR2-Captions [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nchitchat lines and--\n[Laughs; laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=13.339,14.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nBy the way, Rinpoche,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=14.97,16.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"your dog is doing\njust famously at our place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=16.27,18.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Hmm?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=18.86,20.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Your dog is doing\njust famously at our place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=20.19,21.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nI talked to Jim\nabout that yesterday.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=21.87,24.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Oh, you did?\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nHe said [INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=24.32,26.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nHe barks at strangers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=26.77,27.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nMhmm. That's good.\nThat's [INAUDIBLE WORDS].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=27.98,30.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWhat kind of a dog is\n[INAUDIBLE]?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=30.47,32.355"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: That's good.\nOkay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=32.355,34.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nEnormous. We call him \"Noodle.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=34.68,36.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"CAMERAPERSON: [offscreen]\nDuncan?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=36.98,39.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWelcome to Open Secret,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=39.26,41.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a series of discussions\nthat's being taped","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=41.28,43.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at Naropa Institute\nin Boulder, Colorado.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=43.41,47.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"With us tonight\nwe have four people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=47.28,50.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from the Naropa\nInstitute faculty,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=50.04,52.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to discuss the topic\n\"origins of neurosis.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=52.01,55.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Naropa Institute was founded\nby Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=55.65,59.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to provide an environment\nin which the academic","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=59.7,62.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and artistic disciplines\nof the East","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=62.22,64.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"could interact\nwith those of the West.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=64.31,67.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And this evening,\nwe have with us people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=67.07,69.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who are trained both in Eastern\nand Western disciplines.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=69.53,73.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Among them, Bernie Weitzman\nwho has been","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=73.57,76.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"an academically\ntrained psychologist,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=76.15,78.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and has also been trained\nas a Jungian analyst.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=78.66,81.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He's teaching a course at Naropa\nInstitute entitled \"Jung.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=81.7,86.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, the\nPresident of Naropa Institute,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=86.78,90.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is teaching a course\non \"The Tibetan Buddhist Path:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=90.95,94.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the Hinayana, the Mahayana,\nand Buddhist Tantra,\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=94.13,97.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and has recently published\na book","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=97.66,99.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"entitled CUTTING THROUGH\nSPIRITUAL MATERIALISM.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=99.0,103.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Gregory Bateson,\nan anthropologist,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=103.9,106.027"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"whose most recent book is\n[STEPS] TOWARDS AN ECOLOGY OF\nMIND,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=106.027,109.093"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"has worked for several years\nin New Guinea and in\nThe Dutch Indies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=110.421,115.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And Michael Kohn,\nwho has studied in France","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=115.91,118.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with Paul Ricoeur\nthe phenomenologist,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=118.53,121.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and is a teaching assistant\nin Rinpoche's class,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=121.64,124.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"entitled \"Buddhist Tantra\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=124.48,126.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is also the editor\nof Garuda Magazine,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=126.37,129.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which is a yearly publication","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=129.0,130.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of the Vajradhatu Association\nof Churches,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=130.51,133.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"established by\nChogyam Trungpa Rinpoche.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=133.57,137.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: The topic that\nwe're discussing tonight","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=137.18,139.5"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is \"origins of neurosis.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=139.5,142.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And perhaps it seems\nthat the best way","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=142.35,144.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to embark\non this discussion","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=144.22,145.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"would be to perhaps\ntalk about what it is","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=145.87,150.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"exactly that we all mean\nby \"neurosis\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=150.13,153.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"since it seems to be\none of those words","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=153.1,154.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that is often misused or abused","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=154.79,157.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or used in a fairly\nsloppy fashion,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=157.53,160.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and it means many things\nto different people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=160.26,165.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I thought maybe Bernie,\nyou could begin,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=165.33,167.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"by talking about what,\nin your own work,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=167.81,170.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is your conception of neurosis\nand how you apply it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=170.37,175.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nI suppose I can add","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=175.17,176.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to the smorgasbord\nthat you described.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=176.39,181.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I view neurosis as\nthe rather strange phenomenon,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=183.22,188.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of someone\npersistently following","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=188.01,192.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a certain path of behavior,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=192.61,197.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"where, from the view\nof an outside observer,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=197.85,202.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the behavior is\nclearly doomed to failure,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=202.12,205.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and from the point\nof view of the person","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=205.43,208.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who is engaging\nin that behavior,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=208.37,210.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"one would expect\nthat he already knows --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=210.51,214.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or *should* know -- in some way\nthat he's not going to succeed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=214.13,220.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It's like coming to the\nbeginning of a certain roadway,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=221.69,229.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and looking down it,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=229.11,230.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and one has walked down\nthat road many, many times,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=230.32,233.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and one knows that\nat the end of that road,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=233.92,237.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"one is going to crash.\nAnd one has tried many times,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=237.25,241.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"each time walking\na little differently;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=241.35,245.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"each time somehow\nconvincing oneself","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=245.93,249.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that this time one has got\nif figured out a little better,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=249.42,252.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and one is going to be more\ncunning on the path this time,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=252.77,255.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and one won't crash.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=255.46,257.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And one walks down\nthat path and crashes again.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=257.46,260.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And somehow a great resistance\nto recognizing","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=260.9,268.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that one already knows\nthe outcome,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=268.43,270.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"for some strange reason\none persists in that behavior.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=270.72,276.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So that's in general what I--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=277.71,279.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"how I see\nthe neurotic situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=279.15,282.03"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well when you\ntalk about success or failure,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=282.03,284.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"what exactly is the standard\nby which one succeeds, or fails?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=284.94,291.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: It seems that\nthe person wants something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=291.33,295.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the way\nthey're trying to get it,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=295.27,300.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"doesn't bring them\nwhat they want.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=300.66,304.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And some place in that is...\nis a puzzle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=304.26,310.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell is this the kind of thing","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=310.44,311.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you think that for instance\nall people share?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=311.74,314.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Is this a fundamental definition\nof human consciousness","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=314.34,316.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or is there only a certain group\nwithin a given society","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=316.85,319.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that one would\nlabel \"neurotic\"?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=319.45,320.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: I got a feeling\nthat this sounded\nlike a culture --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=320.86,325.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a system in which one goes on\ndoing the same sort of thing,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=325.37,327.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"year after year,\nmillions of us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=327.97,331.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And we know it isn't\ngoing work very well;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=331.14,334.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we know it leads either\nto warfare","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=334.17,335.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or to slums or something\nof the kind, but we go on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=335.87,340.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Is this neurosis\nwithin your definition?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=340.54,342.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nWell that would seem to be","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=342.61,343.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in some way\nthe general human condition.\n[Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=343.84,346.55"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: [Laughs]\nA general human condition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=346.55,348.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Yes.\nGREGORY BATESON: Ah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=348.11,349.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell there seem to be","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=349.48,350.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"another point,\nis that when we label somebody,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=350.84,356.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or societal pattern\nas neurosis,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=356.62,361.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"are we speaking ourselves\noutside of that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=361.15,363.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"so we are viewing them,\nlike animals in a zoo.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=363.6,367.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That we are not captured\nin the zoo;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=367.67,369.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"therefore we can take\npleasure in that and enjoy","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=369.25,371.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and see that's their behavior\nor whatever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=371.73,375.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Or, are we talking\nto *ourselves*?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=375.09,377.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I think that reference point","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=377.99,379.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is seem to be necessary\nfor people to realize, that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=379.69,384.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean how do we know, you know,\nhow whole thing's beginning?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=384.87,389.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that seem to be question\nthat maybe we could discuss,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=389.52,395.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with everybody.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=395.22,396.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThe first time you do it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=396.46,397.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it's not neurosis, eh?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=397.66,399.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: It would seem.\nOne's trying out something,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=399.76,401.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and one could suppose one\ndoesn't know the outcome.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=401.95,405.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell what is the standard","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=405.73,407.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"for neurosis would you say?\nI mean it would seem like","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=407.02,409.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it might vary\nfrom culture to culture.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=409.05,410.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That in one culture\na certain kind of behavior","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=410.8,413.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"might not fit the norm,\nand be labeled neurosis,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=413.71,416.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"whereas in another culture\nthat same kind of behavior","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=416.75,419.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"might be regarded as normal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=419.9,422.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that seems to be\nthe whole definitional point","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=422.54,424.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at the outset,\nis what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=424.74,426.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"*is* it that determines\nthat what is sane","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=426.77,428.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and what is neurotic behavior?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=428.79,430.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What is normal\nand what is aberrational?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=430.02,432.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell it has a good Occidental","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=432.38,434.03"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"definition attached to it:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=434.03,435.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"If it works\nit's not neurosis.\"\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: I--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=435.44,439.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nBut it's got to work, yes?\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Well--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=439.51,441.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nIf it doesn't work and you do it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=441.12,442.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"over and over again,\nand then it's neurosis.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=442.52,443.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Still there\nit seems to be in the defined\n[INAUDIBLE]--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=443.98,446.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThere's a pragmatic sort of--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=446.49,447.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nI feel that the point of view","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=447.95,449.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from which it's being labeled,\nas Rinpoche suggested--\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=449.32,452.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\n--perhaps needs to be specified.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=452.76,455.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I-- my intention\nreally was speaking","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=455.91,458.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from the point of view\nof the suffering,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=458.53,461.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of the person moving toward\nwhat he wants,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=461.09,465.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or what he supposes he wants.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=465.15,468.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: There seems to be\na grid of success and failure,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=470.3,474.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"working or not working.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=474.63,476.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I'm wondering\nwhen you say, Gregory,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=476.58,482.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"if it works or doesn't work,\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=482.14,483.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it seems to determine whether\nor not it's neurotic, what--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=483.72,486.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nIt's his definition, not mine.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=486.65,489.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell, anyone who wishes to speak\nto this point I think--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=489.81,493.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'm very curious as to\nwhat constitutes \"it works.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=493.67,497.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Ah! \"It works\"\nmeans it makes money--\nMICHAEL KOHN: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=497.25,502.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\n--it gets in the newspapers,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=502.14,505.065"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it gets a Nobel Prize.\nMICHAEL KOHN: I see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=505.065,509.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell that's only in *our*","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=509.23,510.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/300","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"culture.\nBut how about the cultures","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=510.51,511.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/301","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that you've investigated\nalternatively,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=511.96,513.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/302","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean do they have\nother kinds of success patterns,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=513.74,516.03"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that would mean that\ndifferent kinds of behavior","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=516.03,518.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"would be justified?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=518.98,520.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/305","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nI don't know a New Guinea word\nfor \"neurosis.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=520.26,524.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/306","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Is there a Tibetan word\nfor \"neurosis\", Rinpoche?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=524.97,526.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/307","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I think\nthere are dozens of them.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=526.97,529.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/308","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nDozens of them!\n[Laughs; Trungpa Rinpoche\nlaughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=529.53,534.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/309","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nBut none of them","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=534.1,535.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/310","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"said exactly \"neurosis\"\nas simple as that, but--\nGREGORY BATESON: Mhmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=535.34,539.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/311","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\n--there's \"half\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=539.2,542.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/312","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"partial\", \"absolute\";\nall kinds of things.\nGREGORY BATESON: Mhmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=542.42,549.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/313","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell that raises actually--\nGREGORY BATESON: \"Samsara.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=549.18,552.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/314","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nMhmm. Well that's one of them.\n[Laughs; laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=552.31,557.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/315","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: That's to me\nan interesting point,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=557.32,558.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/316","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as to whether or not neurosis,\neven to talk about neurosis,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=558.75,562.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/317","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is not perhaps maybe\na self-conscious exercise","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=562.58,566.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/318","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of a self-conscious culture,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=566.04,567.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/319","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and that perhaps\nin primitive cultures,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=567.51,569.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/320","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which are perhaps\nnot involved","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=569.29,573.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/321","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the same kind of\nself-examination,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=573.08,575.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/322","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"neurosis doesn't exist\nas a concept","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=575.79,577.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/323","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because they simply\ndon't relate","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=577.62,578.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/324","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to that kind of\nself-examination.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=578.94,581.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/325","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Is that a possibility?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=581.2,582.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/326","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell they can say,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=582.45,584.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/327","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"You know Joe, Joe's nuts.\"\nAnd as far as I know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=584.73,590.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/328","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"pretty well every civilization\nin the world","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=590.58,593.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/329","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"has a word\nwhich means \"nuts\", \"insane.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=593.99,598.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/330","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And these are\nnon-technical words.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=598.97,602.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/331","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But if the behavior\nis sufficiently peculiar,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=603.68,608.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/332","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"if the people on whom the joke\nis being played","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=608.08,612.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/333","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"by the guy who is nuts,\ncan't see the joke,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=612.07,618.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/334","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because there's always you know\na little bit of that there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=618.48,621.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/335","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Mhmm.\nWell it seems\nthat this kind of thing","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=621.75,625.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/336","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of \"he's nuts,\nJoe's nuts\"--\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=625.16,628.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/337","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: --applies to\nsome kind of situation","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=628.19,631.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/338","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of *extraordinary* eccentricity","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=631.57,634.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/339","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or bizarre behavior\nof some kind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=634.38,639.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/340","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Does that mean\nthat the general run of folk,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=639.32,642.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/341","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"general run of people,\nwhether they be --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=642.12,644.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/342","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"whatever country they happen\nto be natives of,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=644.71,649.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/343","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"are devoid of neurosis?\nThat we're sane...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=649.07,655.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/344","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWe're sane","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=655.0,656.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/345","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"if we follow\nthe general cultural norms,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=656.26,659.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/346","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and those that don't are insane,\nis that what you're suggesting?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=659.07,661.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/347","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well, what I would\n*like* to suggest is --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=661.69,666.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/348","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at this point if it's possible\nI would like","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=667.29,669.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/349","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to introduce\nthe Buddhist point of view.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=669.32,677.195"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/350","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Which seems to be that--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=677.195,681.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/351","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it seems to define itself\nin relation to \"Buddha\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=681.35,685.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/352","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and \"Buddha\" seems to mean\n\"The Awakened One.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=685.75,688.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/353","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And since Buddha decided\nto teach all the people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=688.97,694.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/354","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who are not awakened ones,\nabout being awake,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=694.01,700.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/355","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it seems that\nfrom his point of view,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=700.05,702.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/356","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"everyone was in\nsome way neurotic,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=702.31,704.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/357","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"everyone who wasn't\nso-called \"awake.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=704.89,707.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/358","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Mhmm.\nAnd from their point of view?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=707.29,711.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/359","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nFrom their point of view.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=711.66,713.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/360","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: I mean,\nWilliam Blake for example","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=713.73,715.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/361","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was assumed to be insane\nby a great many people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=715.51,718.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/362","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He undoubtedly\nwas as nearly awake","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=718.99,723.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/363","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as any Occidental\nhas achieved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=723.11,726.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/364","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well I think\nwe have to throw away--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=726.52,729.59"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/365","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I would like to throw away\na social definition,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=729.59,733.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/366","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a social norm,\nso to speak,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=733.12,735.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/367","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and suggest that we're\nall normally abnormal --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=735.74,740.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/368","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or most of us in any case\nare normally abnormal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=740.56,744.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/369","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that sanity is something","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=744.65,747.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/370","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"doesn't require somebody's\nstamp of approval,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=747.95,751.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/371","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but is self-substantiating.\nIf that's possible--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=751.45,755.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/372","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nDo you want to equate sanity","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=755.66,757.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/373","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with Buddhistic awake-ness?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=757.87,761.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/374","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Yeah.\n[Laughs; laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=761.14,763.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/375","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Okay!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=763.21,764.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/376","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now if we were all awake --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=764.65,767.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/377","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which I presume\nonly one of us is...\n[Laughs; laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=767.13,769.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/378","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nI think all of us!\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=771.218,775.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/379","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThat if we were all awake,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=775.45,777.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/380","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we'd be awfully different\nfrom each other, wouldn't we?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=777.52,780.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/381","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean we'd become in a way even\n*more* different from each other","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=780.71,783.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/382","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"by virtue of being waked up,\nthan we are just by way of being","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=783.64,791.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/383","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"sort of conforming members\nof a culture,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=791.04,793.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/384","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and holding down jobs in\nuniversities and all that stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=793.01,796.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/385","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell in the absence","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=796.64,797.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/386","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of that experiment\nhaving taken place,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=797.97,800.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/387","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I would say that it's difficult\nto know just what might happen,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=800.87,806.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/388","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as to whether people\nwould begin developing all kinds","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=806.11,809.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/389","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of brilliantly\ndifferentiated plumage,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=809.46,812.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/390","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or whether they would\nremain a general gray;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=812.57,816.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/391","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean I don't think we--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=816.91,818.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/392","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Wait, I think\nthere is probably 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evidence,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=822.1,823.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/395","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but there must be enough\nZen evidence,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=823.74,826.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/396","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to know that people who've--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=826.33,828.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/397","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that satori on the whole\nmakes people more different","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=828.42,831.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/398","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from each other,\nmore idiosyncratic,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=831.04,835.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/399","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"more free\nto be idiosyncratic perhaps.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=836.76,840.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/400","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: I would like to\ntake a shot at placing--\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=840.93,843.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/401","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\n--the way we seem","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=843.69,844.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/402","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to use neurosis\nin this culture","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=844.91,847.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/403","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"within the Buddhist frame of\nreferences as Michael suggests.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=847.46,852.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/404","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If the Buddha taught in fact\nthat the human condition","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=854.03,858.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/405","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in some way involves\nsome form of suffering,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=858.66,864.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/406","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the unawakened state,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=864.6,867.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/407","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the first learning task\nin a sense for the Buddhists","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=869.98,874.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/408","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"seems to be getting in touch\nin some way","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=874.8,878.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/409","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with the fact of his discontent,\nor of his suffering.\nGREGORY BATESON: Mhmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=878.64,883.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/410","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: And that from\nthat point of 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suffering.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=889.16,893.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/413","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So one who becomes aware\nof his pain--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=893.51,897.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/414","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nBut he's not merely *in* pain,\nbut *aware* of the 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seeking","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=903.64,905.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/417","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"some kind of relief\nfrom his pain.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=905.42,908.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/418","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He's the one who we-- to whom\nwe apply the label \"neurotic.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=908.35,913.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/419","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell, there might be two cases.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=913.36,916.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/420","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"There might be\nthe case of people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=916.78,919.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/421","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who are submerging themselves\nin the general pattern,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=919.62,924.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/422","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"for fear of revealing\ntheir pain.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=924.38,928.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/423","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And there might be those,\nfor another case,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=929.55,933.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/424","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who make themselves obvious\nby running away from their pain","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=933.74,940.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/425","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and not acknowledging\ntheir pain,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=940.35,941.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/426","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"develop exotic manners\nof behavior,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=941.71,946.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/427","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as a sort of self-existing\ndiversion from that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=947.36,952.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/428","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from that sort of difficulty\nof relating","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=952.72,955.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/429","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to the awkwardness\nof situations unfolding.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=955.37,960.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/430","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nI think question","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=960.13,961.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/431","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that we probably\nshould think about it,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=961.41,963.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/432","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is that are we purely talking\nabout black and white,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=963.25,970.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/433","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or are we talking about there's\na possibility of light gray","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=970.21,973.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/434","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and dark gray?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=973.46,975.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/435","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I think that's\nvery important;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=975.11,981.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/436","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"otherwise there's\nno way of wakening.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=981.56,986.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/437","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Not to mention\nthe whole spectrum of colors--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=986.91,988.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/438","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah.\nGREGORY BATESON: --maybe.\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=988.77,991.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/439","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I think maybe we should\nlook into that possibility.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=991.31,995.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/440","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And which seem to be\nwhat's known","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=995.69,997.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/441","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the Buddhist tradition\nas \"the path\" --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=997.24,999.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/442","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is the tendency goes forward,\ntowards the awake,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=999.66,1006.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/443","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and semi-awake, and half awake,\nand not at all awake,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1006.96,1009.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/444","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but there *is* wakeful quality\nwithin the confusion","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1009.87,1013.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/445","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at the same time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1013.82,1015.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/446","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And in even in\nthe wakeful aspect","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1015.8,1018.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/447","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"there is a limit of confusion,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1018.53,1020.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/448","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because that's why\nthe wakeful people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1020.81,1023.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/449","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"can transmit their message\nto the confused ones.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1023.1,1026.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/450","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And there is\na lot of interchange,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1026.99,1029.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/451","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a lot of room takes place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1029.28,1030.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/452","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And maybe we should talk\nin terms of intermediary,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1030.61,1035.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/453","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"if there is a possibility.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1035.44,1037.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/454","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rather than define\nor people or label them,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1037.54,1041.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/455","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is \"he's okay, so far,\"\nand \"he's nuts\", you know it's--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1041.41,1046.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/456","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nRinpoche, what would you say\nis the confusion?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1046.14,1050.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/457","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Do you think confusion\ntakes place","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1050.1,1051.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/458","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the mind of peoples\nin all cultures?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1051.87,1054.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/459","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Is it simply a matter\nof relating to the environment","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1054.62,1056.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/460","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the system\nin which you live,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1056.9,1058.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/461","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and being able to relate\nto that properly?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1058.68,1061.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/462","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Or is there some more\nsort of transcendent,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1061.16,1063.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/463","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"universal notion of confusion?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1063.2,1067.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/464","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nI would say both.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1067.64,1069.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/465","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That there is\nthe fundamental freedom","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1069.47,1075.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/466","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from confusion takes place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1075.27,1079.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/467","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"At the same time there is\na confusion of communication,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1079.04,1085.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/468","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"language, behavior, which is not\nparticularly the absolute thing;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1085.79,1092.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/469","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it's somewhat secondary thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1092.68,1095.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/470","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You might enlightened\nor wakeful chimpanzee,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1095.97,1101.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/471","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in his own right,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1101.72,1103.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/472","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but as far as human beings\nconcerned a chimpanzee","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1103.48,1106.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/473","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is just simply chimpanzee,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1106.22,1109.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/474","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and hadn't made up\nto level of human being.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1109.63,1114.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/475","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nCan we look at it\nthen as levels of confusion?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1114.96,1120.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/476","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The most noteworthy level\nof confusion","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1120.82,1123.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/477","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"being someone\nwho we would term neurotic","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1123.75,1127.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/478","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because he's overtly peculiar.\nAnd levels of confusion...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1127.95,1135.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/479","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don't know\nif it's fair to say","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1136.12,1137.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/480","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that neurotics\nare the most confused;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1137.48,1139.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/481","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don't know\nif that's fair at all.\nGREGORY BATESON: Mhmmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1139.87,1144.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/482","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell I think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1144.76,1146.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/483","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that there's a level\nthat neurotics","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1146.04,1150.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/484","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who speaks truth,\nwho experience the truth,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1150.32,1154.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/485","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of his own neurosis\nor her own neurosis,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1154.11,1157.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/486","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"are somewhat awake,\nin his own right,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1157.06,1160.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/487","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in his own world.\nAnd he is completely frustrated","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1160.8,1164.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/488","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that he can't transmit\nsuch truth to somebody else;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1164.01,1167.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/489","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that's why he's so aggravated.\nThere is that possibility.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1167.16,1172.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/490","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so as the so-called\nordinary people,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1172.12,1177.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/491","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"have also a problem relating\nwith other ordinary people,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1177.2,1180.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/492","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because he doesn't share --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1180.45,1182.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/493","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or the other person\ndoesn't share --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1182.87,1184.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/494","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"his own state of mind.\nAnd might call him \"nuts\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1184.46,1188.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/495","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but actually that's just way\nto aggravate somebody else,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1188.86,1192.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/496","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to bring him closer,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1192.0,1193.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/497","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"so that there's some\ncommunication takes place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1193.89,1197.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/498","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So it's very tricky game\nthat people seem to play.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1197.28,1202.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/499","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nThat seems to bring up","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1202.49,1203.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/500","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the example\nof Dostoevsky's THE IDIOT.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1203.82,1206.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/501","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean in that novel\nthere was a perfect example,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1206.32,1209.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/502","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it seems, of the kind of thing\nyou're talking about:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1209.61,1211.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/503","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"about someone who had a clear\nvision in his own world,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1211.68,1215.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/504","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and had tremendous difficulty\ncommunicating that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1215.13,1217.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/505","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to a world which operated\non different standards,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1217.29,1220.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/506","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which I think we could say\nare confused standards.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1220.52,1223.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/507","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he could not communicate\nhis clarity to that world","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1223.77,1227.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/508","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and as a result he was labeled\n\"nuts\", \"the idiot\", and--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1227.48,1230.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/509","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nYeah, I think we--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1230.44,1231.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/510","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\n--that raises the whole question","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1231.64,1232.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/511","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as to whether or not\nit's possible","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1232.98,1234.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/512","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to be clear in a world","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1234.45,1236.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/513","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in which the other people\nin your own cultural environment","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1236.42,1239.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/514","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"do not share\nyour same vision.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1239.33,1241.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/515","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean is it possible\nfor instance to be quote \"sane\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1241.1,1245.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/516","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in an insane society?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1245.46,1247.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/517","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\n[UNCLEAR: Bad? Bat?]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1247.24,1250.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/518","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nWell perhaps if we included","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1250.48,1251.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/519","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the conception of sanity,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1251.76,1255.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/520","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from that point of view,\nthe capacity to communicate,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1255.4,1258.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/521","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"then we wouldn't\nconfuse the clarity","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1258.65,1261.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/522","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that the neurotic has\nwith clarity per se.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1261.17,1266.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/523","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"There is some element\nof clarity, some clear seeing,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1266.83,1272.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/524","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"involved in the suffering\nof that condition,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1272.41,1275.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/525","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but it's still quite confused.\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nBecause it can't--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1275.56,1279.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/526","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: I don't like\nthis word \"confused.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1279.23,1282.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/527","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'm not clear that people\nare *ever* confused.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1282.06,1286.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/528","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean I think they have\nvarious false premises","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1286.1,1289.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/529","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"on which they work.\nWhen they work on those premises","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1289.42,1293.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/530","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"they usually work very, very\n*clearly* on those premises.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1293.65,1298.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/531","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But they certainly\nnever behave randomly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1298.29,1302.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/532","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Indeed the first definition you\ngave was of repetitive behavior.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1302.76,1306.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/533","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nWith increasing cunning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1306.47,1308.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/534","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: With perhaps\nincreasing cunning,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1308.22,1309.5"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/535","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with increasing suffering maybe,\nbut very regular sort of stuff","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1309.5,1317.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/536","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that you can define\nin a textbook almost.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1317.19,1320.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/537","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Not confused,\nnot random in any sense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1320.2,1324.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/538","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I'm not sure that there is\nany mental trouble or pathology","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1324.09,1328.03"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/539","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which is really random.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1328.03,1330.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/540","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Well--\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: What--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1330.69,1331.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/541","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nWould you have a sense--\nI'm sorry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1331.97,1333.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/542","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Yeah.\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Please.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1333.62,1334.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/543","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nWould you have a sense","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1334.82,1336.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/544","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of what the confused quality\nmight be then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1336.09,1341.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/545","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And there is-- I see the clarity\nthat you're referring to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1341.69,1344.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/546","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell I've worked mainly","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1344.19,1345.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/547","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with people who are,\nI suppose, more far gone;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1345.43,1351.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/548","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"therefore more clear\nin many ways in their--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1351.31,1354.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/549","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"what their at -- with psychotics\nrather than with neurotics.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1354.2,1358.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/550","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"With psychotics certainly,\nwhat they're doing is clear.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1358.67,1362.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/551","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[Bernie Weitzman laughs]\nIt may not go--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1362.34,1364.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/552","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it may go against the grain\nso far as *you're* concerned,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1364.77,1368.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/553","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"especially if you happen\nto be grown close to them,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1368.24,1371.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/554","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or you happen to try\nto organize them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1371.53,1373.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/555","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"As an administrator or employer\nor something, you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1373.39,1377.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/556","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you can't say \"they're nuts,\"\nbecause you--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1377.91,1382.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/557","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"*you* cannot afford to look down\nthe avenues of--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1382.0,1384.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/558","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWhy is that?\nGREGORY BATESON: --assumption.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1384.74,1387.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/559","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWhy is is that the psychiatrist","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1387.19,1388.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/560","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in that situation\nyou described,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1388.41,1389.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/561","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"can't afford to look down\nthose avenues\"?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1389.77,1393.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/562","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Well we had\na very nice psychiatrist,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1395.68,1398.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/563","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"whom I became very friendly\nwith afterwards,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1398.69,1402.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/564","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in one of the Macy meetings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1402.48,1406.3"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/565","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he gave us a little\nlecture on schizophrenia:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1406.3,1408.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/566","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he said that the psychotic --\nhe was a Dutchman --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1408.4,1412.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/567","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is disordered.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1412.66,1417.678"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/568","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I asked whether\nhe meant \"random.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1417.678,1420.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/569","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he said, yes,\nhe meant random.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1420.09,1422.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/570","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"Well, by random,\ncould you give us","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1422.17,1425.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/571","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"an example of random behavior,\nI'm not sure I ever saw any.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1425.41,1430.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/572","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"Yes,\" says our friend,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1430.07,1433.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/573","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"For example\nI say to the patient,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1433.25,1437.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/574","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"'what is the difference between\na ladder and a staircase?'","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1437.36,1444.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/575","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the patient\nsays 'stockings.'","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1444.0,1447.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/576","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That is random,\"\nsays our psychiatrist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1447.05,1450.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/577","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I said to him I think,\n\"What was random?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1450.86,1453.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/578","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It seemed to me, doctor, he was\ntalking about the difference --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1453.68,1456.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/579","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"sexual difference --\nbetween himself and you.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1456.54,1460.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/580","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the psychiatrist\nsort of blew bubbles at that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1460.65,1464.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/581","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I said, \"Well do\nwe have to spell it out?\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1464.85,1467.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/582","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"Yes, please spell it out.\"\nAll right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1467.93,1470.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/583","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"Well is it so that\nin the Dutch language,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1470.79,1475.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/584","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you call a run in a lady's\nstocking 'a ladder'?\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1475.05,1479.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/585","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he said, \"Yes,\nthat's right!\" [Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1479.32,1483.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/586","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it's silly when it\nis spelled out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1483.77,1485.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/587","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so it spells out, you see,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1485.77,1489.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/588","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that the patient knows that\nthe doctor is asking a question,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1489.81,1496.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/589","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to which the doctor\nknows the answer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1496.64,1499.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/590","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Why does he do that?\nThey're the devil you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1499.56,1503.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/591","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"psychotics,\nthey know these things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1503.22,1505.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/592","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Why does a doctor\nask a question which","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1505.54,1507.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/593","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"*he* doesn't know the answer\nand the patient might not?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1507.48,1511.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/594","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It is to prove a difference\nbetween the doctor","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1511.18,1513.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/595","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the patient.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1513.47,1514.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/596","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well I mean--\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1514.78,1517.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/597","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\n--but still that clarity\non the part of the patient,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1517.27,1520.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/598","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in reference to \"ladders\",\nseems to be saying--\nGREGORY BATESON: And sex.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1520.54,1525.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/599","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: And sex --\nwas the patient a lady?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1525.72,1527.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/600","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: The difference.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1527.05,1528.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/601","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"No the difference\nyou see between ladder","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1528.27,1529.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/602","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and a staircase is holes.\nMICHAEL KOHN: Uh huh, I see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1529.68,1532.505"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/603","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nHoles in your stockings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1532.505,1533.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/604","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nI see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1533.77,1535.03"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/605","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nAnd holes in the stocking,\nand so on and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1535.03,1537.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/606","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell I mean, is that clarity--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1537.56,1540.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/607","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"would you say\nthat clarity is--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1540.27,1541.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/608","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"on the part of the patient\nis trivial?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1541.94,1543.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/609","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: No!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1543.36,1544.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/610","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Oh no, it is pathology.\nHe shouldn't know","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1544.65,1547.034"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/611","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"those\n[laughing] things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1547.034,1547.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/612","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nHe shouldn't know those things.\nWell what would you say--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1547.86,1550.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/613","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nA graduate student\nyou see knows those things,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1550.85,1553.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/614","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but he hides them when\nhe deals with a psychologist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1553.38,1556.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/615","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell what would-- well--\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1556.52,1559.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/616","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: I mean\nif neurotics are clear...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1559.53,1562.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/617","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nI'm not sure they are.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1562.42,1563.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/618","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Psychotics are clear.\nThey've gone through to a point","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1563.71,1567.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/619","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at which\nthey're now clear,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1567.71,1569.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/620","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that the only thing that matters\nis this between the people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1569.27,1574.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/621","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Do you see when he says\n\"stockings\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1574.93,1577.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/622","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he's not answering\nthe original question.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1577.42,1580.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/623","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He won't do that.\nWhat he does is to say,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1580.4,1584.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/624","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"What sort of a thing\nare you doing to me Doctor?\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1584.13,1586.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/625","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that's always\nwhat he's talking about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1586.49,1589.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/626","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that isn't what\nnormal people talk about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1589.92,1591.55"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/627","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"They hide their--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1591.55,1593.03"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/628","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell in your terminology then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1593.03,1594.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/629","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"what would be\nthe difference","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1594.23,1595.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/630","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"between \"neurotic\"\nand \"psychotic\"?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1595.45,1598.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/631","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell I don't use the 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example,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1604.05,1607.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/634","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"for an error in learning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1607.78,1610.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/635","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If you learn that elevators\nare dangerous,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1610.05,1614.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/636","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"then you will refuse\nto visit--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1614.43,1616.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/637","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"enter an elevator\nand being gone up a skyscraper;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1616.1,1618.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/638","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you'll have to go up the stairs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1618.54,1621.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/639","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That's a sort of rather\nsimple piece of error.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1622.3,1624.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/640","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Gregory?\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1624.39,1626.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/641","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nI wonder what you would 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\"neuroses.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1631.23,1633.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/644","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nHe was not willing to--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1633.88,1635.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/645","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you mean at all, yes?\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Not at all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1635.14,1636.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/646","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nYeah, I don't think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1636.61,1637.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/647","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he had really anything to do\nwith what we're talking about:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1637.82,1640.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/648","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a very specific sort\nof narrow, particular--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1640.56,1644.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/649","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nWell they seem to 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Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1646.74,1648.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/652","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: --of focus,\nsimply because of that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1648.02,1651.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/653","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"focus.\nJung tells two stories,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1653.01,1657.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/654","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which persuaded him that\nlabeling a phobia as neurosis","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1657.74,1662.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/655","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was a serious error\nof preconception.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1662.31,1665.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/656","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He tells one story\nabout a patient of his","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1665.71,1669.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/657","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who had a phobia about birds.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1669.24,1671.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/658","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And one day they went out\nfor a walk in the garden,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1671.68,1675.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/659","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and a bird suddenly\nflew out of the tree","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1675.23,1678.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/660","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and stabbed the patient\nright in the chest;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1678.92,1680.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/661","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"didn't hurt her seriously,\nbut was a serious abrasion.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1680.99,1683.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/662","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: He really did!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1683.78,1685.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/663","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Really did.\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah. [Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1685.02,1687.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/664","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nAnd he tells another story","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1687.52,1688.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/665","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"about a patient of his\nwho was phobic about","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1688.9,1690.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/666","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"walking up stairs\nin public buildings,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1690.8,1693.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/667","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and was subsequently\nassassinated on the stairs","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1693.82,1696.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/668","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of a public building.So--\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1696.37,1700.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/669","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\n--Jung was persuaded","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1700.33,1701.55"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/670","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that those fears upon\nwhich neuroses are based,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1701.55,1707.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/671","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"always contain some form\nof intelligence","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1707.05,1709.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/672","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that we may not be able\nto understand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1709.67,1713.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/673","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThere is an intelligence","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1714.73,1715.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/674","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"about the future,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1715.97,1717.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/675","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and information\nabout the future?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1717.17,1719.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/676","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nIn some sense perhaps.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1719.24,1722.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/677","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nI knew an O.B. man,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1722.38,1724.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/678","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"an obstetrician,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1724.12,1726.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/679","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who lived up in Northern\nCalifornia, the Redwood area,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1726.63,1730.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/680","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and when he drove cars\nhe used to overtake from time","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1730.61,1733.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/681","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to time big lumber cargos,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1733.38,1736.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/682","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with enormous trunks\nof redwood on them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1736.95,1740.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/683","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He had a fear that\na redwood trunk would roll off","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1740.85,1744.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/684","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"one of those things\nonto his car.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1744.04,1747.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/685","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So he had a big steel rib\nput over the top of the car.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1747.38,1753.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/686","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And about three months later,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1753.84,1755.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/687","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a redwood tree rolled\nonto his car and he survived.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1755.13,1761.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/688","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nIs that a success story?\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1761.41,1766.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/689","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell I mean","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1766.23,1767.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/690","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'm just helping\nDr. Jung out.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1767.52,1771.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/691","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nThe patient might have worn\nan armor plated...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1771.48,1775.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/692","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThat's right, that's right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1775.95,1779.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/693","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell, I'm still not clear","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1779.7,1781.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/694","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"on the definition between\n\"neurotic\" and \"psychotic\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1781.28,1783.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/695","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because I think in the popular\ndefinition at any rate,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1783.72,1787.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/696","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"there seems to be some notion\nof the neurotic","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1787.83,1789.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/697","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as somehow slightly off,\nin terms of normal behavior,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1789.79,1794.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/698","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but the psychotic\nis somehow gone","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1794.84,1797.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/699","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"beyond a certain\nkind of intangible point,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1797.46,1801.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/700","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"where he is no longer\nin any real communication","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1801.41,1804.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/701","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with the world\nthat normal people share.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1804.07,1807.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/702","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I wonder if that's\nthe kind of definition","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1807.25,1809.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/703","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that *you* would give for\n\"neurotic\" and \"psychotic\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1809.33,1811.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/704","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because if that's so--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1811.43,1814.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/705","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell I would say that it is","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1814.35,1815.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/706","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"usually terrifying,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1815.83,1819.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/707","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to look down the avenue\nof the psychotics' premises.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1819.44,1827.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/708","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Why is that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1828.58,1831.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/709","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell, they know and feel --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1833.2,1835.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/710","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or feel rather than know--\na heck of a lot of things","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1835.67,1839.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/711","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which we would much\nrather they *didn't* know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1839.98,1842.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/712","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell what kind of things?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1842.13,1843.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/713","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Why are they terrifying?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1843.41,1845.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/714","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell they know why","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1845.87,1847.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/715","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I've got my hands\nin that position,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1847.58,1849.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/716","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at that moment, why you got\nyour hands in that position.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1849.65,1855.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/717","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And they can look around this\ngroup and know what's happening.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1855.22,1859.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/718","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell is that what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1859.76,1860.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/719","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we would define\nas \"clarity\" then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1860.97,1862.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/720","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThis is absolutely terrifying.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1862.25,1863.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/721","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"This is clarity, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1863.64,1864.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/722","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nThis is clarity.\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1864.84,1866.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/723","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nBut then what's the problem?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1866.9,1868.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/724","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThe problem is that other people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1868.53,1869.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/725","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"don't like that.\n[Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1869.98,1871.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/726","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell are we suggesting","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1871.81,1873.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/727","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that then we should all develop","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1873.06,1874.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/728","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that kind of\npsychotic awareness?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1874.34,1878.233"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/729","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Why?\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1878.233,1879.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/730","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nI mean why not just live","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1879.02,1882.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/731","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the suburbs\nlike other people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1882.28,1884.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/732","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nThat was what Bernie I thought","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1884.91,1886.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/733","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was describing\nin terms of suffering;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1886.12,1887.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/734","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that somehow living\nin the suburbs like other people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1887.7,1892.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/735","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"gave birth\nto a kind of pain","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1892.0,1893.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/736","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and suffering psychologically\nthat, although it's covered,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1893.39,1897.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/737","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we all may be in Thoreau's\nwords \"quietly desperate\";","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1897.23,1900.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/738","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"there's still the sense\nthat something's wrong.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1900.62,1903.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/739","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I'm not quite clear\nwhat you're suggesting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1903.57,1906.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/740","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, is the solution\nto go into that other world","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1906.74,1910.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/741","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which is so clear\nand yet at the same time","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1910.62,1912.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/742","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is not able to communicate\nand relate","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1912.71,1915.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/743","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with the world of everyone else,\nor is there a third alternative?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1915.23,1918.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/744","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Would you\n[INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1918.71,1922.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/745","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"disentangle us, Rinpoche?\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1922.01,1924.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/746","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nI want to hear more about it.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1924.08,1925.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/747","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Hmm?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1925.99,1926.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/748","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nI want to hear more about it.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1926.62,1931.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/749","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nI'd like to suggest","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1931.47,1933.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/750","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that maybe we could talk\nfor a couple of minutes","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1933.44,1936.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/751","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"about what people are after,\nand what they want.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1936.58,1940.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/752","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nYeah. Very good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1940.99,1944.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/753","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: It seems that\nthere are different strategies","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1944.82,1947.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/754","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"involved perhaps with the person\nyou call neurotic","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1947.1,1949.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/755","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the person\nyou call psychotic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1949.24,1952.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/756","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It seems to me\nthere's a different form","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1953.14,1954.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/757","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of blindness involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1954.56,1957.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/758","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It seems to me\nthat there's a neurotic--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1958.38,1959.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/759","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Wait.\nA difference sort of vision?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1959.86,1961.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/760","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1961.08,1962.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/761","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nSimultaneously, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1962.33,1963.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/762","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nThe neurotic, it seems to me,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1963.87,1965.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/763","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"going down his path,\nis going after --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1965.13,1968.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/764","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as far as his upfront\nconsciousness is concerned --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1968.6,1971.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/765","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he's going after something which\nis not really what he wants.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1971.51,1975.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/766","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He's not--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1975.68,1976.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/767","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Not but really,\nbut all right, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1976.88,1978.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/768","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nHe's not quite willing to know","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1978.42,1979.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/769","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"what it is that he wants,\nand so his attack is devious,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1979.85,1987.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/770","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and his energy isn't\nreally being applied","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1987.75,1991.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/771","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the direction\nof his desires.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1991.49,1992.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/772","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell why is that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1992.93,1994.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/773","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Why can't he see\nthat pattern happening?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1994.14,1996.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/774","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nBecause it's too shameful,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1996.81,1998.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/775","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to know what he really wants.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=1998.89,2001.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/776","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it seems to me\nthat the psychotic--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2001.86,2008.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/777","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"my experience\nis very limited,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2008.72,2010.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/778","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but in the cases that I've had\nsome close contact with,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2010.96,2017.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/779","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that what it is that's wanted is\nknown with clarity, but denied.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2017.97,2024.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/780","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So that, I mean\na very gross example","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2025.35,2029.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/781","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in a way was a young woman\nI worked with,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2029.92,2033.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/782","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who was continually persuaded\nthat any man she met","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2033.24,2037.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/783","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was trying to turn her\non sexually.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2037.69,2040.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/784","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"She had no sexual desire.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2040.8,2043.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/785","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But her sensitivity\nto seduction was so acute,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2043.29,2052.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/786","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and so keen--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2052.37,2053.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/787","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: And accurate?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2053.83,2055.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/788","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Accurate.\nAbsolutely accurate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2055.07,2059.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/789","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And she had the knowing\nthat you describe","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2059.17,2061.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/790","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and an incredible keenness\nand sharpness of vision.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2061.88,2065.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/791","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But I would say she also was too\nashamed to know what she wanted.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2065.94,2072.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/792","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And had gone past\nI think the neurotic game","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2072.15,2077.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/793","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of obscuring\nthe whole area of desire,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2077.36,2081.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/794","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was dealing with\nthe area of desire,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2081.78,2083.5"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/795","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but still dealing with it\non that interface,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2083.5,2086.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/796","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of \"this is not *my* desire.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2086.58,2088.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/797","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The desire exists and becomes\nthe subject of my intelligence","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2088.83,2095.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/798","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and my energy.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2095.43,2098.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/799","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But a different\nkind of ignorance,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2098.41,2099.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/800","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a different kind\nof turning away from--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2099.72,2101.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/801","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREOGRY BATESON:\nDo you want to say","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2101.24,2102.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/802","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that the dominant word","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2102.46,2103.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/803","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"perhaps in that whole statement\nabout this gal,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2103.8,2106.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/804","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was the word \"my\"?\n\"It's not *my* desire.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2106.81,2110.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/805","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2110.25,2111.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/806","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nI mean this is the--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2111.71,2113.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/807","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"one of the hotspots\nof psychosis.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2113.27,2115.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/808","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The first person pronoun\nbegins to be \"not it.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2115.61,2124.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/809","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In which they are of course\nvery closely related","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2124.32,2128.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/810","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to Buddhistic positions\nthat have discovered","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2128.97,2132.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/811","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that the ego is a phony.\n[Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2132.1,2144.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/812","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We, in our civilization,\nsay of people who do not believe","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2144.63,2149.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/813","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in an ego organization\nof behavior,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2149.4,2153.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/814","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we say they're psychotic.\nAnd you say they're awakened.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2153.49,2161.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/815","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell, now wait a minute.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2161.0,2164.885"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/816","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: [Laughs]\nI will wait.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2164.885,2169.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/817","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: There seems to be\nan enormous desire","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2170.94,2175.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/818","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"on the part of practicing\ntherapists in general,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2175.32,2180.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/819","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to accommodate the world of--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2180.74,2185.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/820","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to accommodate the world\nand the personages of people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2185.54,2189.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/821","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who are supposedly\npsychotic or neurotic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2189.05,2192.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/822","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And to in every way\ncredit their situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2192.87,2197.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/823","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThat's one theme, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2197.84,2199.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/824","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHEAL KOHN: And it seems\nto be a very strong theme.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2199.23,2202.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/825","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"On the other hand there seems\nto be an overwhelming fact","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2202.68,2209.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/826","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that this is maybe\nmollifying somewhat,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2209.37,2212.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/827","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"softening the edge of somewhat,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2212.92,2215.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/828","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that there's something wrong,\ndreadfully wrong,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2215.26,2220.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/829","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with these people;\nthere's some kind of difficulty.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2220.39,2224.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/830","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I mean the whole force\nof \"enlightened therapy\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2224.62,2233.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/831","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at this point","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2233.04,2234.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/832","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"seems to be to recognize\nthe validity of their situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2234.29,2239.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/833","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But that seems to me\na hell of a copout,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2239.27,2241.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/834","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in some ways,\nin relation to the fact","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2241.22,2243.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/835","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that they become cases\nin the first place,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2243.98,2248.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/836","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to that--\ncan be then accommodated.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2248.43,2250.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/837","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But they're cases in some way;\nthere's something wrong.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2250.88,2254.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/838","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nThey're cases, it seems to me,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2254.63,2255.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/839","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the sense\nthat their intelligence","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2255.86,2259.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/840","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is not openly acknowledged\nby them,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2259.47,2263.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/841","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and applied to\nthe living situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2263.6,2266.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/842","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Their intelligence\nis a secret.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2266.58,2269.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/843","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So the-- it seems to me\nthat the therapeutic attitude,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2270.53,2274.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/844","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which attempts to\ncommunicate to the patient:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2274.89,2279.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/845","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"What you know\nis in fact true.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2279.42,2283.3"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/846","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Your intelligence\nis active and precise.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2283.3,2286.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/847","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It doesn't have to be\nhidden by you,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2286.36,2290.03"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/848","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it can be employed by you.\nYou can know what you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2290.03,2293.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/849","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and still live\nin the world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2293.32,2295.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/850","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Your knowledge doesn't\nmake you a pariah;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2295.36,2297.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/851","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you don't have to hide.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2297.75,2299.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/852","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nVery well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2299.96,2301.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/853","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But in relation to the situation\nof the therapist","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2301.17,2306.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/854","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who wishes to offer a road\nto the person in difficulty,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2306.84,2312.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/855","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"let us say, to participate\nwith his intelligence","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2312.2,2316.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/856","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and his insights\nin a broader situation,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2316.65,2322.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/857","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the difficulty--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2322.85,2324.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/858","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the great difficulty\nseems to be,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2324.2,2326.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/859","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"what is it that\nwe're offering then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2326.68,2329.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/860","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What is it that we're providing\nfor them to participate in,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2329.7,2333.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/861","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that they're secreting\nthemselves away from,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2333.87,2339.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/862","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at the moment?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2339.35,2340.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/863","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It seems that there's some\ndifficulty on the point of--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2340.94,2343.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/864","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from the point of view\nof the therapist,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2343.84,2345.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/865","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of what world\nis he offering them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2345.7,2349.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/866","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Is he saying,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2349.19,2350.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/867","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"But look, yeah I can hear\nwhat you're saying.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2350.91,2354.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/868","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yes, *but*.\nBecause you shouldn't say that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2354.39,2359.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/869","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or you should get away from\nthe idea that's the way to talk.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2359.37,2362.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/870","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I'll tell you how to behave\nlike a common sense human being.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2362.83,2365.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/871","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And with a little practice\nyou'll manage it or other.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2365.47,2368.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/872","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That's one-- that is one of\nthe therapeutic attitudes.\nMICHAEL KOHN: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2368.96,2372.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/873","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nRight. The other one","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2372.38,2373.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/874","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is you listen to this stuff","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2373.81,2375.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/875","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that's coming out of him\nthat he's saying,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2375.96,2378.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/876","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and you say not \"yes\",\nbut you say \"yes *and*\".","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2378.73,2383.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/877","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And you're saying essentially,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2383.63,2385.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/878","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"Go *through* this whole tangle\nthat you're in,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2385.15,2389.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/879","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and see where you get\non the other side.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2389.08,2392.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/880","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Without--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2392.88,2394.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/881","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: There are both\nsorts of psychiatrists","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2394.11,2396.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/882","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"are practicing up\nand down the country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2396.05,2398.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/883","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The majority of the\n\"yes but-ers\"--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2398.25,2400.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/884","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: What's the carrot?\nGREGORY KOHN: The carrot?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2400.26,2403.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/885","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Yeah.\nGREGORY BATESON: Wisdom.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2403.38,2405.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/886","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You mean the carrot\nfor the \"yes and-ers\"?\nMICHAEL KOHN: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2405.84,2408.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/887","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nIs wisdom, or enlightenment,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2408.48,2410.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/888","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or something like it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2410.44,2413.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/889","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: And is that\nproffered by the therapist","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2413.08,2420.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/890","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as something definite\nor is--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2420.46,2423.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/891","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"does he leave\nthat an open question?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2423.46,2424.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/892","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: No, he doesn't\ntell the patient","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2424.96,2426.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/893","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"usually that's what\nhe's talking about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2426.2,2428.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/894","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: But does he have\na \"that\" in mind","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2428.78,2430.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/895","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that he's talking about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2430.22,2431.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/896","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Oh yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2431.51,2432.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/897","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well is that\nwhat the patient picks up on,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2432.73,2434.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/898","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and which prompts\nhis resistance at that point?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2434.44,2436.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/899","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThe patient at that point","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2436.84,2438.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/900","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is likely to panic\nof course, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2438.1,2439.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/901","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nHe feels like he's a pawn","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2439.76,2441.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/902","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in somebody else's game.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2441.01,2442.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/903","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: He thinks\nhe's now being cheated,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2442.23,2443.5"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/904","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or he can feel himself\ncheated, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2443.5,2448.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/905","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"This guy is going to\n*use* my symptoms --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2448.25,2453.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/906","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"even to my own good,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2453.25,2454.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/907","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but essentially\nthat there's a...\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2454.49,2458.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/908","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell that seems to bring back","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2458.98,2460.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/909","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the basic of question\nof communication.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2460.73,2462.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/910","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, how is it possible\nfor two people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2462.47,2464.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/911","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to communicate\nacross these kinds of games?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2464.26,2467.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/912","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, do we even have an idea\nthat radical that it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2467.12,2470.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/913","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"*is* possible for two people\nto interrelate in a way","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2470.44,2473.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/914","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which is so open\nthat neither one nor the other","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2473.51,2476.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/915","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is actually trying to con\nthe other one into his own game,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2476.25,2479.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/916","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or his own structure?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2479.06,2480.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/917","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, do you think\nthat's possible in psychology?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2480.27,2484.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/918","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell he can say so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2484.87,2487.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/919","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, \"what I'm trying\nto con you into...\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2488.49,2491.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/920","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nRight, I mean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2491.11,2492.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/921","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that seems to be\nthe critical point to me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2492.34,2494.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/922","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThis *is* a critical point, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2494.11,2495.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/923","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nRight, that the--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2495.46,2497.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/924","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"one can own one's con game,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2497.47,2500.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/925","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and one can communicate\none's willingness","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2500.35,2503.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/926","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to be caught\nin one's con game.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2503.48,2506.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/927","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That one doesn't have\nto deny the fact","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2506.87,2509.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/928","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of what one is doing\nwith a psychotic","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2509.01,2512.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/929","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who's going to catch\none every time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2512.65,2515.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/930","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So one can own it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2515.21,2517.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/931","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that seems to establish\nsome ground of communication.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2517.53,2522.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/932","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nGround of communication.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2524.6,2527.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/933","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Between the\npsychiatrist and the patient.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2527.93,2530.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/934","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\n[INAUDIBLE WORDS]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2530.12,2533.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/935","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That's a good one.\n[Laughs; laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2533.19,2535.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/936","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWhen the patient says to you,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2535.4,2536.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/937","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"Are you a Boy Scout?\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2536.77,2539.245"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/938","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You know this is big advance.\n[Laughter; laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2539.245,2543.785"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/939","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean yes, you are.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2543.785,2545.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/940","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nBoy Scout in the sense","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2545.85,2547.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/941","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that you're trying to play\nthe game straight?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2547.06,2550.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/942","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nYou're trying to do him good,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2550.26,2552.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/943","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which is none\nof your goddamn business.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2552.37,2555.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/944","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell I mean is there any way","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2557.84,2559.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/945","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that we can apply\nthese kinds of experiences,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2559.15,2561.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/946","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"between psychiatrist and patient\nto the world at large;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2561.72,2565.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/947","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is there anything\nthat comes out of this to talk","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2565.27,2569.5"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/948","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"about how to be an ordinary\nperson in the world, or--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2569.5,2571.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/949","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nDo you want to be","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2571.71,2573.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/950","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"an ordinary person in the world?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2573.01,2574.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/951","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWe do or we don't?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2574.26,2575.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/952","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nI mean, do you?\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2575.49,2578.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/953","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nDo you want *him* to be?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2578.0,2580.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/954","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: --do you think\nthat's a false premise?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2580.54,2584.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/955","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nFalse in the sense","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2584.22,2585.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/956","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that really you don't want it--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2585.61,2586.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/957","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell is there something about","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2586.85,2588.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/958","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"this Boy Scout mentality-\nGREGORY BATESON: --or is--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2588.11,2589.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/959","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\n--of trying to encourage him","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2589.44,2590.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/960","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to kind of relate\nto the world--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2590.65,2591.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/961","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThere is something","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2591.87,2592.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/962","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"screwy about that, yeah.\n[INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2592.29,2593.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/963","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\n--and there's something\nthat's a problem there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2593.51,2596.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/964","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: That's right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2596.02,2597.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/965","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell do you think it's possible","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2597.4,2598.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/966","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"for a personality then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2598.6,2599.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/967","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to develop its full\nspontaneous possibilities,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2599.82,2603.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/968","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and at the same time\nfit into society in some way?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2603.1,2605.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/969","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Or is he going to be\nan irremediable eccentric","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2605.99,2609.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/970","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and somehow who is bound\nto be ostracized,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2609.34,2611.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/971","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and if he doesn't *quite*\nbe cunning enough,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2611.45,2613.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/972","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"eventually wind up\ninstitutionalized?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2613.34,2614.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/973","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell let's go back\nto the vocabulary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2614.72,2617.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/974","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We started with the word\n\"neurosis\" --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2617.32,2620.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/975","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a word I wouldn't use it,\nif I could help it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2620.87,2626.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/976","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We've now moved on the whole\nto the word \"psychosis.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2626.77,2631.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/977","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now, what are the other words,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2631.49,2635.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/978","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of the same order\nof abstraction as these?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2635.67,2641.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/979","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now is--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2642.89,2644.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/980","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well let's take\na simple example.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2644.15,2645.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/981","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: --\"humor\"\nof the same order of abstraction","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2645.44,2647.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/982","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as psychosis, for example?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2647.66,2653.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/983","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Is \"religion\" of the same order\nof abstraction as psychosis?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2653.49,2658.59"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/984","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Is \"art\" of the same order\nof abstraction as psychosis?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2660.02,2664.55"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/985","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What are the alternatives?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2664.55,2667.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/986","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Where does a word\nlike this belong","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2668.07,2670.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/987","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in a total spectrum\nof human life, really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2670.27,2674.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/988","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, not handling it\nis something you can put","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2674.62,2676.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/989","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"into a mental hospital\nand get rid of,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2676.7,2680.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/990","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but handling it is part of\nthe ordinary living business","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2680.62,2683.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/991","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of being a living human being.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2683.47,2687.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/992","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Are you suggesting\nthat psychosis is a word--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2687.0,2689.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/993","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"work of art?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2689.16,2690.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/994","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nI'm suggesting that it--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2690.88,2692.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/995","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"if you wanted to have\na world without psychosis,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2692.31,2698.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/996","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you would find you've got\non your hands a world","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2698.26,2700.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/997","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"without art\nand without humor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2700.52,2703.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/998","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That there's somehow\nsort of going hand in hand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2703.51,2707.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/999","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell it sounds like in this","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2708.35,2709.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1000","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"kind of terminology\nthat the word \"sane\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2709.63,2711.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1001","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or the word \"sanity\"\nis somehow the fall guy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2711.85,2714.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1002","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That \"sane\" or \"sanity\"\nis being made the equivalent","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2714.8,2718.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1003","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of kind of a very limited","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2718.93,2720.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1004","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"sort of ordinary awareness\nand psychosis--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2720.86,2723.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1005","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: In our culture\nI think that is so, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2723.17,2726.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1006","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well, is there\nany radical possibility","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2726.2,2728.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1007","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of reversing\nthat terminology","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2728.22,2729.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1008","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and beginning to talk about\n\"sanity\" in a very positive way,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2729.94,2734.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1009","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"without at the same time\ndoing injustice","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2734.16,2736.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1010","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to the clarity of neurosis?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2736.22,2739.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1011","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean would it be possible\nto talk about \"sanity\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2739.09,2744.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1012","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as something very positive","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2744.13,2745.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1013","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"rather than some sort of cop\nout to your own possibilities?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2745.67,2748.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1014","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean do we have to give\nthat up essentially, you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2748.75,2752.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1015","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to say that sanity has somehow\nbeen bought by the \"squares\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2752.53,2756.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1016","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as you put it at one point?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2756.65,2759.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1017","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell suppose...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2759.1,2762.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1018","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"how should I say?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2762.61,2765.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1019","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If I achieved something\nlike quote, \"enlightenment\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2773.17,2777.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1020","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as I understand the word,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2777.13,2780.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1021","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think I would be\nboth more clear","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2781.24,2785.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1022","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"about what it is\nto be alive,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2785.8,2789.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1023","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and be with people and love\nand hate and all that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2789.96,2794.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1024","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but my ability to do\nthat will be less threatened","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2796.53,2801.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1025","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"by conforming to the ordinary\nnonsense of everyday life.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2801.65,2805.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1026","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell I think what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2805.96,2807.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1027","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'm really asking is this:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2807.27,2808.55"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1028","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is there a way to relate\nto ordinary,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2808.55,2811.3"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1029","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"everyday life\nwhich is non-conforming","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2811.3,2813.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1030","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and at the same time\ntranscends that kind of trap,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2813.66,2818.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1031","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of being pocketed or ostracized\nas some sort of aberration?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2818.05,2821.3"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1032","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: As long as\nthe university administration","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2821.3,2822.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1033","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"don't get after you,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2822.8,2824.03"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1034","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or the C.I.A. or one\nof these other bodies, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2824.03,2827.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1035","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nYou know it seems","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2827.28,2828.59"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1036","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that following\nany individual path--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2828.59,2830.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1037","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThen how are you going","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2830.04,2831.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1038","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to get grants\nfor your research?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2831.25,2833.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1039","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nMhmm. Well of--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2833.14,2834.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1040","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think that is\nin fact the problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2834.52,2836.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1041","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[Laughter; laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2836.51,2839.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1042","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think the problem\non any individual path","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2839.9,2842.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1043","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in terms of the relationship\nto society,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2842.31,2846.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1044","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is that you're going to\nproduce some work of art,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2846.51,2851.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1045","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"be it a psychosis\nor painting;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2851.09,2856.59"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1046","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"there's going to be\nsome perhaps expressive form","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2856.59,2863.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1047","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"representing your individuality,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2863.61,2865.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1048","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and then society\nis going to look at it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2865.48,2867.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1049","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and say, \"I like it\"\nor \"I don't like it,\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2867.21,2870.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1050","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"I'm going to support you\nfor your individuality,\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2870.45,2873.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1051","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or \"I'm going to hospitalize\nyou for your individuality.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2873.42,2877.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1052","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Again the--\nI would like to bring it back","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2878.77,2881.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1053","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to what feels to me\nlike a concrete fact","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2881.64,2884.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1054","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of what people want.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2884.89,2887.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1055","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it seems to me that all\nof these strategies are involved","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2887.96,2891.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1056","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with attempts to fulfill\nsome kind of an idea","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2891.89,2896.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1057","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of human happiness,\nsatisfaction,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2896.51,2900.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1058","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"security of some kind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2900.93,2902.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1059","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell just on that point,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2902.58,2903.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1060","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean do you think\nthere is a possibility","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2903.87,2905.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1061","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of a human awareness\nwithout strategy?\nGREGORY BATESON: [Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2905.73,2909.55"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1062","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nI think so--\nGREGORY BATESON: Don't--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2909.55,2912.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1063","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: I think people\nwould have to somehow","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2912.02,2915.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1064","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"begin to explore\nthe possibility","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2917.93,2919.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1065","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that they could experience the\nfact that they want something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2919.77,2925.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1066","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That it isn't shameful\nto have an emotional life.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2925.48,2929.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1067","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that an emotional life","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2929.92,2932.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1068","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is not something to hide\nfrom oneself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2932.74,2936.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1069","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that one could relate with\none's emotional life directly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2936.26,2942.55"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1070","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Not hiding if from oneself,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2942.55,2945.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1071","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and not necessarily\nhiding it from society;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2945.08,2948.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1072","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that one could move\nwith some directness.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2948.61,2952.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1073","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Risking of course the fact\nthat society might look at one,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2952.96,2958.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1074","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"following the path\nof one's emotional life,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2958.27,2960.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1075","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and say,\n\"We don't want this.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2960.99,2963.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1076","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell suppose you manage","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2963.87,2965.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1077","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to have an emotional life,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2965.1,2969.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1078","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and without apologizing\nto anyone for that --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2969.29,2974.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1079","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is that a success story?\nSo I mean, so what?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2974.05,2977.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1080","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWhat's a success story?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2977.19,2978.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1081","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: So you have--\nwell I mean we--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2978.4,2979.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1082","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nIt's a question.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2979.65,2980.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1083","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\n--we seem to be--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2980.93,2982.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1084","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: It just seems\nto me to be a precondition","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2982.14,2983.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1085","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"for beginning to explore\nwho one in fact is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2983.61,2988.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1086","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: For exploring --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2989.18,2992.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1087","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is that a model of where\nwe ought to be going,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2992.22,2996.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1088","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is finding out who one is?\nOr...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2996.47,2999.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1089","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nOnly if one feels","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=2999.28,3000.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1090","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that one's attempts\nto satisfy one's desires","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3000.54,3006.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1091","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"are perpetually being\nfrustrated by the fact","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3006.04,3008.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1092","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that one is moving\nin a direction","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3008.46,3010.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1093","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"quite opposite to the direction\none would like to move in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3010.93,3013.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1094","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell let's say,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3013.16,3014.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1095","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"let's say\nfor just for hypothesis,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3014.42,3017.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1096","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that one manages to satisfy\nall one's desires --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3017.49,3022.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1097","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[laughing]\nI mean, that sounds--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3022.05,3023.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1098","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: I'm not\npostulating satisfaction--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3023.6,3024.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1099","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: You wouldn't\nget up at four o'clock","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3024.95,3026.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the morning\nand write books.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3026.2,3027.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: [Laughing]\nYou wouldn't get up","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3027.45,3028.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at four o'clock in the morning\nand write books. Uh huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3028.72,3033.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Well [laughing]...\nsatisfaction,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3033.75,3036.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"satisfaction of one's desires,\nin some way,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3036.42,3042.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean against some background,\n[UNCLEAR: egos? echoes?]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3042.71,3045.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is almost trivial.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3045.79,3047.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean if one satisfies\none's desires, so what?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3047.81,3051.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If one gets up and writes books\nat four o'clock in the morning,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3051.42,3055.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and creates some\ncultural monument, so what?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3055.96,3061.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What's the score?\nWhy is that--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3061.54,3064.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"why is either one of them\nconstitute a--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3064.77,3066.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in our discussions\n[INAUDIBLE WORDS] .","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3066.89,3068.3"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nI mean take a look","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3068.3,3069.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at the heroes of our culture.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3069.51,3071.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What-- who really\nhas made our culture?\nMICHAEL KOHN: Nietzsche.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3071.11,3075.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: There's Christ,\nthere's Leonardo -- who else?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3075.66,3083.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell I don't know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3083.45,3084.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"There seem to be a lot of\nlittle cultures involved here,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3084.69,3087.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and who could be the--\nI mean it could be","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3087.62,3090.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Eugene B. Debs, you know.\n[Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3090.43,3095.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nYeah, yeah yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3095.61,3096.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yeah, they're pretty odd\nbunch of men, frankly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3096.85,3100.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3100.17,3103.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Newton, with a locked box\nin his college rooms","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3103.36,3107.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at Trinity College,\nCambridge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3107.54,3110.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"His public life entirely\nconcerned with,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3110.91,3113.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you know, astronomy\nand gravity and all these nice--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3113.8,3116.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWhat was in his locked box,\n[laughing]do you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3116.38,3118.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Yes!\nMICHAEL KOHN: What was it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3118.95,3121.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nKabbalistic manuscripts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3121.89,3125.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What's that chemical stuff?\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Alchemy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3125.85,3128.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nAlchemical 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loved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3135.39,3138.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Why Jung didn't bid\nwhen the box was opened","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3138.61,3140.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"about twenty years ago,\non all the manuscripts?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3140.9,3145.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Many of them copied\nby Newton himself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3145.39,3148.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he knew, that one side of\nhis personality was presentable,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3148.69,3153.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the other side wasn't.\nAnd he played it straight.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3153.25,3157.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nSo the model of success as I'm--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3157.83,3162.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"getting to--\nbeginning to seem to pick up","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3162.58,3166.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the underlying strategy\nhere is to [laughter; laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3166.36,3173.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"satisfy one's desires and be\npresentable at the same time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3173.54,3177.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: I don't know\nabout this word \"desires.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3177.54,3180.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nAnd I don't know about","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3180.12,3181.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the word \"satisfy.\" [Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3181.34,3183.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Knowing and satisfying\nare not necessarily the same.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3183.12,3185.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\n\"Dance the dance\nwhich one has to dance,\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3185.62,3189.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and at the same time take a bus\nto get to the dance hall.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3189.86,3194.565"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Or something of the kind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3194.565,3196.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well you know\nwhat it sounds to me like,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3196.23,3198.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is in a lecture\nthat you gave recently,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3198.84,3201.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you talked about\nthe right side of the brain","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3201.43,3203.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the left side of the brain.\nThat the right side of the brain","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3203.32,3205.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"somehow had that sense\nof sort of intuitive reality,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3205.54,3209.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the left side of the brain\nwas primarily concerned","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3209.72,3211.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with the prose presentation\nof personality,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3211.99,3214.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in a respectable way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3214.85,3216.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And you talked about\nthe primary value","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3216.81,3219.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of somehow making a bridge\nbetween those two,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3219.68,3221.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in terms of love\nor communication.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3221.62,3224.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Right. Correct.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3224.22,3225.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yeah, and we know almost\nnothing about that bridge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3225.44,3227.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But that bridge is--\nif we knew about that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3227.63,3230.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"maybe up in those\n[UNCLEAR: lamaseries?],","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3230.36,3234.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"they know about that bridge,\nI don't know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3234.53,3238.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell it sounds to me like what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3239.43,3240.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the Buddhist tradition\nis referred to as \"compassion.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3240.78,3243.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And compassion is not\nsimply a state of mind,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3243.57,3247.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but also a vehicle\nfor awareness and a vehicle","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3247.09,3249.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"for communicating\nwith the world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3249.84,3252.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I thought maybe Rinpoche,\nyou might [laughing]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3252.22,3255.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"have something to say on that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3255.82,3257.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Me?\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3257.53,3263.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nI mean are there concepts","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3263.97,3265.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that we can work with that make\nthis sort of thing possible,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3265.44,3269.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of fully realizing\nyour personality","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3269.11,3271.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and at the same time,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3271.47,3273.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"communicating with\nthe rest of the world?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3273.02,3276.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Or are we doomed to a kind\nof ostracized individuality,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3276.49,3279.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"like Socrates or whatever;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3279.99,3281.59"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who some people recognize\nas wise and his own culture","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3281.59,3285.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"thought should\nbe condemned to--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3285.09,3287.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: He sure left\nan enduring karma around.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3287.57,3292.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: That's true.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3292.11,3293.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But is there\na model for us,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3293.65,3295.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"for the ordinary person\nin society, to act?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3295.2,3299.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Is there some way\nto kind of fully explore","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3299.2,3302.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"your own personality,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3302.69,3304.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"without at the same time\nwinding up in an institution?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3304.09,3309.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nI think question is not so much","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3309.53,3311.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of what we can do,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3311.08,3315.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to ourselves particularly.\nBut question seem to be","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3315.2,3318.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is the how we could work\nwith the environment;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3318.6,3324.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"things around us.\nYou have a psychotic there,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3324.07,3331.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and psychotic is actually\noverwhelming you,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3331.21,3336.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because of that environment\n*you* have created,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3336.43,3339.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the psychotic\nhas upper hand over you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3339.63,3343.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And could challenge you\nfrom that point of view.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3343.49,3348.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nIs it the psychotic part of you,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3348.05,3350.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or the psychotic individual\nvis-a-vis?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3350.77,3352.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nNo the--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3352.32,3353.55"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"yes, psychotic part of you,\nhow you create your world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3353.55,3356.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And psychotics will pick up\nthat message,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3356.49,3359.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and in the name\nof your particular personality,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3359.26,3363.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and attacks you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3363.33,3365.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that seem to be\none of the problems,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3365.76,3367.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that we are not\nso much concern","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3367.63,3369.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of particularly\ndeveloping individuals,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3369.22,3373.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but developing environment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3373.44,3375.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that seem to be, you know,\ngoes with the idea--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3375.68,3378.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the concept of compassion.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3378.17,3380.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Is not so much of that\nyou should be","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3380.4,3382.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a member\nof the Red Cross organization","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3382.15,3386.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or anything like\nthat particularly,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3386.43,3389.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but that the environment\ncould be worked on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3389.0,3397.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rather than get rid\nof that irritating problem","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3397.15,3403.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that you involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3403.15,3404.87"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the problem isn't\nactually the problem","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3404.87,3406.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from that point of view.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3406.61,3407.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Problem is kind of lead,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3407.81,3412.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that you can work\nwith the things around you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3412.09,3415.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Which is hell of a lot of job\nfor somebody to ask you do that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3415.18,3422.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but that's what I suppose\nknown as mahayana","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3422.01,3424.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Buddhist tradition,\nis the bodhisattva action.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3424.36,3429.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That a person doesn't\nhave to be corrected,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3429.52,3432.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but environment could be\nrearranged, reorganized.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3432.99,3438.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In the very simple situation,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3438.15,3439.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"rather than, you know,\nsweeping the state--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3439.95,3443.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"city, or make world\nas liveable and good,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3443.32,3446.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ecologically clean\nand everything.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3446.94,3448.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But there is some environment\nthat is workable.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3448.63,3455.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And once that environment's\nbe seem to be dealt,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3455.21,3457.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"then the individuality slowly\nconforms itself to it slowly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3457.71,3465.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"By not being pushed\ninto particular dogma","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3465.93,3467.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or particular idea.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3467.73,3471.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: But you're--this\nis working with somebody","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3471.04,3474.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who is out of step,\nso to speak,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3474.17,3477.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and trying\nto get them into step.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3477.28,3480.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nI think this is a question","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3483.32,3486.5"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of working with somebody\nwho is slightly confused,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3486.5,3490.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or slightly distorted,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3490.83,3493.145"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or fully awake, whatever.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3493.145,3500.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWhat's the call for working","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3500.62,3502.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with someone\nwho is fully awake?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3502.0,3504.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell still that they are--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3504.73,3506.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean that's the precisely\none of the big deals","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3506.11,3508.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"about Buddha,\nfor instance:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3508.19,3511.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that he was concerned how\nhe could present his teaching,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3511.58,3515.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he has lots of things to say,\nbut he wait for seven weeks,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3515.25,3519.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"after the attainment\nof enlightenment;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3519.27,3521.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"how he could\ncreate environment","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3521.21,3522.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"so that he could say\nhis things he wanted to say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3522.79,3526.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean he could say,\nyou know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3526.14,3527.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he could stand\nin the village square","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3527.53,3529.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and he could vomit out\nthe whole thing he had learned.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3529.28,3532.5"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But he didn't do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3532.5,3533.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he was concerned about\nhow is appropriate,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3533.71,3536.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and how could be done.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3536.85,3539.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nThen from a--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3539.63,3540.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"would you say that\nfrom this point of view that --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3540.97,3543.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or from Buddha's\npoint of view","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3543.65,3545.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that nearly everyone\nwas out of step,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3545.02,3549.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that there was something\nto be taught to everyone?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3549.22,3551.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell I mean even","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3551.46,3553.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"if you're correct,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3553.35,3554.55"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you are perfectly,\nyou know, in balance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3554.55,3557.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But still that there's\nanother thing to work,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3557.73,3559.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which is the environment\naround you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3559.78,3563.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That somebody who achieved\nhighest attainment","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3563.31,3566.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"still have to relate\nwith bread and butter, and roof.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3566.74,3573.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And there are lot\nof truth in that;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3573.98,3576.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that's the hardest thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3576.67,3580.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Is the creation\nof the sacred ground,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3580.79,3586.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"so to speak,\nwhich is been the problem,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3586.99,3589.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"rather than\nthe sacredness itself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3589.57,3593.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell so Buddha would not be","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3593.35,3597.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"so much\ntrying to correct a psychotic,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3597.56,3601.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as who from what we've said","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3601.68,3604.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"seems to have\nsome kind of clarity,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3604.53,3608.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but to make him able to work\nwith his environment?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3608.16,3613.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Mhmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3613.12,3614.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nSo it's not--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3614.32,3615.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nBut consequently","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3615.56,3616.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that's the main--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3616.79,3618.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"terminology for that\nis \"transmutation\".","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3618.0,3620.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That transmutation\ncan take place --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3620.69,3622.5"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"when there is the chemicals\naround it,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3622.5,3625.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that the lead could\nchange into gold.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3625.15,3628.3"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Not because lead *is* gold\nparticularly --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3628.3,3631.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"if you try to struggle\nwith that, it's never possible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3631.15,3634.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But you have to create\nthe chemicals,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3634.14,3636.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"so that possible that\nlead could change into gold.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3636.08,3639.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well then, what is\nthe difference","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3639.75,3641.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"between lead and gold?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3641.17,3642.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell it's lead is very stubborn,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3642.83,3645.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and gold is also very stubborn,\n[laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3645.19,3646.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but different price,\nand softness and hardness.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3646.73,3650.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nSoftness and hardness.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3650.18,3653.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1300","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: They're both soft.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3653.13,3654.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1301","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell, one is hard, one is soft,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3654.81,3657.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1302","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but, you know, it's--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3657.11,3659.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"one can never do that\njust directly,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3659.39,3661.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"without using chemicals.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3661.17,3664.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1305","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHEAL KOHN:\nThere seems to be just a need","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3664.35,3665.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1306","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"for some\nother chemicals involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3665.72,3667.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1307","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nYeah, it seems,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3667.51,3668.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1308","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that seem to be\na problem we are facing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3668.82,3671.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1309","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, this issue has come up\nfor many times, it seemed to be,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3671.81,3676.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1310","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"how we can make somebody\nbetter, a good person?\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3676.97,3680.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1311","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We have a problem with our own\nchildren and things like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3680.48,3684.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1312","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And rich people give them\nlots of money, make them happy,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3684.42,3688.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1313","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and give them a world\naround ticket, and whatever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3688.89,3691.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1314","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But still, the young child\ncomes back as same","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3691.84,3694.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1315","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as fucked up as before.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3694.8,3698.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1316","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it's not that problem,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3698.08,3699.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1317","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it's problem of environment\nof some kind, maybe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3699.71,3705.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1318","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nEnvironment of some kind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3705.95,3709.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1319","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell I mean if he gets a world","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3709.8,3711.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1320","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"around ticket,\nticket around the world,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3711.24,3715.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1321","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"has all kinds of money,\nthen he's okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3715.58,3722.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1322","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Point of view of working\nwith this environment","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3722.48,3724.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1323","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as far as we can tell--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3724.14,3725.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1324","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell I mean, a person","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3725.35,3726.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1325","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"doesn't look at that way,\nperson look at that way,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3726.56,3728.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1326","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is was that, \"I have a ticket.\nAnd I'm taking trips around,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3728.58,3733.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1327","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"visiting all the Sheratons\nand Hiltons of the universe,\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3733.13,3736.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1328","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you know.\n[Laughter; laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3736.88,3738.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1329","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And you come back\nto your apartment,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3738.88,3742.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1330","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to whatever, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3742.21,3744.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1331","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean the person\nhasn't related with...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3744.25,3748.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1332","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"no parents would dump their kid\nin the middle of African desert,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3750.15,3759.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1333","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because that's regarded\nas a rejection,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3759.06,3760.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1334","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"socially, culturally.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3760.81,3762.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1335","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And one shouldn't\ndo such a thing. [Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3762.51,3765.755"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1336","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So the consequently,\nyou know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3765.755,3767.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1337","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"trying to book\nthe most expensive hotels,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3767.12,3770.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1338","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in Nairobi or somewhere.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3770.12,3772.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1339","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nSo there's a necessity to work","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3772.45,3774.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1340","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with the desert,\nare you saying?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3774.05,3775.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1341","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell I mean that's seem","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3775.43,3776.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1342","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to be the point, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3776.67,3778.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1343","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\n\"Work with the desert.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3778.39,3780.3"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1344","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: I mean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3780.3,3781.795"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1345","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"not make a big deal of\nthat.[Laughs]\nMICHAEL KOHN: Well I mean--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3781.795,3784.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1346","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Deserts or the\nmountains or snows.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3784.53,3786.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1347","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nOr would you--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3786.36,3787.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1348","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"maybe that's\nsome kind of an index,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3787.58,3789.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1349","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean maybe psychotics,\nfor all his apparent clarity","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3789.34,3793.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1350","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in the therapeutic relationship,\nhas some sort of failure,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3793.9,3797.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1351","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in that he's unwilling to work\nwith the desert of...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3797.98,3804.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1352","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don't know\nwhat constitutes that desert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3804.01,3805.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1353","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well usually\npsychotics being entertained","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3805.84,3808.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1354","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a great deal by everybody.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3808.12,3812.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1355","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And they have *endless*,\nyou know, entertainment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3812.01,3818.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1356","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"They got the help coming\nfrom all over the directions.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3818.32,3823.245"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1357","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And in turn they feel\nextremely righteous;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3823.245,3825.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1358","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"quite rightly so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3825.4,3827.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1359","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nThey seem to manage","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3827.71,3828.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1360","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"their situation quite well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3828.93,3830.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1361","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3830.15,3831.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1362","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell it's a marvelous way","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3831.39,3832.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1363","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of managing the situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3832.62,3835.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1364","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: But never had\nthat experience the desert,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3835.2,3837.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1365","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or anything like that;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3837.24,3839.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1366","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that you actually\nhave to do it yourself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3839.09,3842.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1367","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well I mean\nthis seems to fall into line","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3844.15,3847.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1368","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with my problem about the person\nwho has satisfied desires,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3847.9,3857.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1369","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who is also very presentable\nat the same time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3857.34,3861.52"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1370","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That he seems to have arrived\nat the end point","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3861.52,3864.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1371","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of conventional psychotherapy,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3864.7,3867.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1372","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and still hasn't dealt\nwith what Rinpoche","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3867.1,3869.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1373","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"speaks of as \"the desert.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3869.93,3873.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1374","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell Rinpoche also speaks","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3874.17,3875.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1375","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of this notion\nof the \"crazy wisdom\":","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3875.62,3878.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1376","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"something that which\nis at the one","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3878.81,3880.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1377","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the same time completely\nsane and communicative,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3880.29,3883.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1378","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and totally outrageous.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3883.34,3886.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1379","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\n--feeding process.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3890.48,3892.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1380","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWhich inspires you,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3892.83,3894.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1381","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"rather than discourages you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3894.11,3895.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1382","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nYeah. Yeah. I mean there is--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3895.56,3896.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1383","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"nobody is really put\non the spot, properly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3896.79,3901.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1384","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: What is the spot?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3901.67,3903.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1385","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, it's\nthe total sense of desolation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3903.13,3908.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1386","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That you have to work\nand find out from yourself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3908.18,3913.3"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1387","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Why is it--\nwhy does the desolation--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3913.3,3915.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1388","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"what-- why does\nthe desolation come in?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3915.28,3917.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1389","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Why is there a need\nfor desolation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3917.35,3919.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1390","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell, the desolation,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3919.36,3920.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1391","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because that otherwise there's\nall kinds of entertainments.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3920.6,3924.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1392","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: What was\nthe matter with entertainment?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3924.25,3926.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1393","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, that\nfeed further neurosis.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3926.99,3929.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1394","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well, what's\nthe matter with the neurosis?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3929.66,3932.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1395","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWhat's the matter with neurosis?\nMICHAEL KOHN: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3932.11,3933.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1396","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[Laughs; laughter; Trungpa\nRinpoche laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3933.63,3934.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1397","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What *is* the matter\nwith neurosis anyhow?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3934.83,3936.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1398","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well what's\nthe matter with the neurosis","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3936.08,3937.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1399","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"seem to be is,\nit's incomplete, totally.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3937.47,3941.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1400","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: It leaks.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3941.11,3942.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1401","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: It leaks. [Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3942.77,3947.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1402","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nNow you're talking. [Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3947.07,3952.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1403","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nSo how does one bring","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3952.81,3954.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1404","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the psychotic\nback then, Gregory,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3954.08,3955.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1405","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from that point of view","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3955.66,3956.86"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1406","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"where he has experienced the\ndesolation of his own insight,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3956.86,3960.48"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1407","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and how does one bring him\nback to communicate more openly","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3960.48,3964.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1408","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with the rest of the world?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3964.65,3966.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1409","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Like that story you told\nabout the person","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3966.11,3968.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1410","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who told you\nas a patient that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3968.99,3970.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1411","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"I've been living in your world\nfrom 1920 to 1943,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3970.58,3974.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1412","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and I *don't* like it.\nAnd I refuse to come back.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3974.56,3978.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1413","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean how do you deal\nwith that situation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3978.12,3980.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1414","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWell this is the question","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3980.01,3981.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1415","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which I passed to Frieda\nFromm-Reichmann,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3981.21,3984.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1416","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who is the great\ntherapist of psychotics.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3984.15,3987.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1417","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And she said,\n\"Yes, I once had a patient\nwho said something like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3987.64,3994.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1418","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I said, 'But I never\npromised you a rose garden.'\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3994.79,3999.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1419","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Hmm.\n[Trungpa Rinpoche and Gregory\nBateson laugh]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=3999.33,4004.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1420","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nBut the relationship","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4007.532,4008.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1421","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"between the satisfaction,\nand desires, and the desert,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4008.98,4013.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1422","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as Jung described it,\nis that--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4013.07,4017.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1423","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the problem with\nthe psychotic for him as well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4018.13,4022.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1424","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that we have a preconception\nabout what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4022.06,4026.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1425","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"*will* satisfy our desires.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4026.11,4028.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1426","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And unless we have successfully\ntasted those satisfactions,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4028.93,4035.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1427","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and come to the conclusion","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4035.07,4037.63"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1428","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that those satisfactions\nstill leave a leaky vessel,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4037.63,4044.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1429","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we'll never be willing\nto face the desert,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4044.31,4047.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1430","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and explore our own way.\nSo...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4047.36,4052.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1431","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell I suppose you could say","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4054.21,4055.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1432","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that there's a need\nfor some kind of guidance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4055.44,4061.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1433","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It's up to the point\nof the guidance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4061.58,4064.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1434","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The guidance-- the guide gives\nperson a certain kind of help,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4064.42,4075.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1435","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that is very transparent.\nStill not perfect.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4075.67,4082.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1436","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But at certain point that guide\nbegin to give some kind of help,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4084.82,4090.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1437","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which is beyond himself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4090.83,4096.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1438","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And sends the person\ninto the desert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4096.05,4099.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1439","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It wasn't a strategy, it was\naccident, but it took place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4101.5,4111.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1440","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then, [laughs]\nsooner or later,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4112.64,4115.5"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1441","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that person who's in desert","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4115.5,4116.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1442","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"have to pull himself\nor herself together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4116.77,4121.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1443","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It could be any kind of desert,\nyou know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4121.23,4124.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1444","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"not particularly\nliteral sense, but--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4124.19,4127.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1445","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell Rinpoche,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4127.81,4129.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1446","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"how can the psychiatrist\ndo that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4129.11,4130.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1447","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with a person who is\nin the desert of psychosis?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4130.58,4133.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1448","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"An incredibly lonely world,\nlike a hell realm","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4133.54,4137.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1449","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"where their own insight can't\ncommunicate with other people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4137.04,4140.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1450","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and they're caught\nin that place","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4140.38,4141.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1451","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"where they can't communicate\nwith any other living beings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4141.66,4143.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1452","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell that's the part","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4143.94,4145.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1453","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of the entertainment,\nthat they're doing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4145.19,4147.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1454","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell how can you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4147.09,4148.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1455","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"cut that compassionately,\nfrom the role of psychiatrist,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4148.42,4151.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1456","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"without being completely\ncold and rejecting?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4151.24,4154.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1457","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nIt's not rejecting;","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4154.24,4155.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1458","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it's *enormous* acceptance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4155.97,4158.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1459","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"To the extent it's *so* cool\nand refreshing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4158.29,4162.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1460","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell what do you *do*,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4162.99,4164.24"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1461","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to welcome them into that world?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4164.24,4166.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1462","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell there's no guidelines,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4166.29,4167.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1463","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"prescriptions of course,\nyou know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4167.95,4170.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1464","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well I have\na slightly different problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4170.13,4174.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1465","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What's the difference\nbetween somebody","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4174.22,4177.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1466","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"who has successfully\npulled up his socks,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4177.34,4181.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1467","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"so to speak -- from the point\nof view of society,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4181.33,4186.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1468","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and has every sort\nof reinforcement,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4186.04,4190.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1469","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of a big house\nand all kinds of money","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4190.79,4195.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1470","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and creative things\nhappening of all kinds --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4195.34,4198.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1471","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and has never\nfaced the desert,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4198.43,4202.01"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1472","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and someone who has\nfaced the desert?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4202.01,4203.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1473","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What is the-- I don't\nunderstand, what is this desert?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4203.98,4206.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1474","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Maybe that\nin itself is the desert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4206.71,4207.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1475","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You were saying something?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4207.94,4209.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1476","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nSomething said about","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4209.16,4210.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1477","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"camels not going through\neyes of needles.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4210.39,4214.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1478","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\"'Tis harder for a rich man\nto into enter the kingdom","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4214.04,4216.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1479","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of heaven than...\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4216.26,4218.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1480","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: That seems to\nappeal to authority.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4218.54,4225.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1481","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell I mean, social patterns","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4225.92,4231.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1482","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"doesn't make particularly either\nthe desert or city particularly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4231.31,4236.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1483","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But it's the context.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4236.35,4240.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1484","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nWell, what's the difference","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4240.79,4241.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1485","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"between social patterns\nand context?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4241.99,4243.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1486","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don't know...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4243.22,4244.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1487","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell, the context are having","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4244.44,4245.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1488","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"lots of money\nor lots of friend.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4245.66,4249.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1489","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nI mean, that seems good:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4251.95,4253.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1490","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"lots of money, lots of friends.\nI mean that seems wonderful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4253.89,4257.17"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1491","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah, then\nif you have lots of them,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4257.17,4258.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1492","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"then it becomes a desert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4258.57,4261.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1493","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"To the level that\nthey could commit suicide.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4262.83,4265.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1494","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell then we would say","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4265.1,4266.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1495","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that then rich people,\nin that sense, are neurotic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4266.49,4270.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1496","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell, pretty much so.\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4270.08,4272.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1497","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell then, what *is* it then\nthat we're talking about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4272.56,4275.847"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1498","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Or for that\nmatter lonely people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4275.847,4277.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1499","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well then, are\nlonely people,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4277.0,4278.855"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1500","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is that what we're talking about\nwhen we talk about neurosis?\nI mean--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4278.855,4282.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1501","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I think\nthere is a basic thing,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4282.6,4284.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1502","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is that when somebody's\nin a problem,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4284.29,4289.5"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1503","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"psychological problem,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4289.5,4291.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1504","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that it is not so much\nof their problem,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4291.85,4294.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1505","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it's a problem\nof environment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4294.74,4298.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1506","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That the environment\nhad to be corrected.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4298.1,4302.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1507","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And when the environment\nis corrected and worked on,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4302.88,4306.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1508","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and then, after that,\nthe person would find sense","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4306.6,4311.83"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1509","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of the desolation --\nafter the correction been made.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4311.83,4316.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1510","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Rather than the desert\nis the cure, or the trick.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4316.88,4321.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1511","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But you know,\nthere's a lot of stages","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4321.93,4324.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1512","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that a person\nhas to go through.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4324.09,4326.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1513","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nOne therapeutic attitude","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4326.77,4328.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1514","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"seems to be,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4328.49,4329.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1515","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"taking the therapist as the\nenvironment to be worked upon.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4329.74,4335.11"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1516","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That the therapist\ncorrecting himself,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4335.11,4340.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1517","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or working on himself,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4340.06,4341.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1518","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as the environment\nfor meeting the patient.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4341.57,4345.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1519","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Mhmm, I see.\n[Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4345.43,4348.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1520","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nBut there seems to be something","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4348.57,4350.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1521","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that's not quite satisfying\nabout that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4350.18,4352.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1522","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nNo, I mean then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4352.95,4355.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1523","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you are still looking\nfor gadgets,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4355.0,4359.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1524","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or further entertainments.\nYou know that-- you could--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4359.64,4363.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1525","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"best you can feed\nis to be therapist,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4363.2,4369.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1526","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to encourage their neurosis,\nyou know constantly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4369.08,4371.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1527","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean that's--\nthey love it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4371.88,4373.59"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1528","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You know, you have\nyour session, pay money,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4373.59,4376.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1529","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and you get money's worth\nand whatever it is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4376.26,4378.79"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1530","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It's delightful.\n[Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4378.79,4381.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1531","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Well how\ncan you cut through that?\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Hmm?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4381.06,4383.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1532","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: As a therapist?\nHow can you cut through that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4383.54,4384.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1533","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well, you\n[INAUDIBLE] already. [laughing]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4384.93,4386.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1534","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: In what sense?\nHow do you cut that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4386.16,4389.709"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1535","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: You\n[UNCLEAR: question of a?]\ndesert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4389.709,4391.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1536","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell, from the role\nof the therapist,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4391.57,4394.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1537","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"how would the therapist\nbe able to throw the person back","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4394.04,4397.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1538","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to that sense of desert\nwithout seeming uncompassionate?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4397.06,4400.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1539","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nWell it doesn't have to make,\nyou know--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4400.43,4403.03"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1540","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWhat does that matter?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4403.03,4405.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1541","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: What?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4405.37,4407.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1542","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: I mean\n\"seeming\" uncompassionate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4407.71,4409.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1543","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell I think that is a problem\nfor a lot of--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4409.13,4411.67"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1544","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Why does--\nI mean, drop the word \"seeming\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4411.67,4412.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1545","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the question\nlooks quite different.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4412.95,4414.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1546","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nYeah, one doesn't have to,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4414.18,4415.42"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1547","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you know--\nDUNCAN CAMPBELL: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4415.42,4417.54"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1548","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\n--sort of put patchworks at all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4417.54,4420.55"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1549","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It may be very gross.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4420.55,4424.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1550","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell Bernie do you think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4424.29,4425.53"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1551","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that's a problem for instance\nfor the psychiatrist,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4425.53,4428.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1552","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"being put in that position","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4428.75,4430.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1553","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"where he has to somehow attempt\nto accept, you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4430.12,4433.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1554","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"like the neurosis and at\nthe same time work with it,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4433.71,4436.35"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1555","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that does that put him\non the spot in a certain way,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4436.35,4438.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1556","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as far as the psychiatrist\nhimself is concerned?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4438.72,4440.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1557","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: I think it's\nbasically an untenable position.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4440.76,4444.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1558","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nFor the psychiatrist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4446.75,4448.04"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1559","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Mhmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4448.04,4449.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1560","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nSo then, what happens?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4449.95,4451.84"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1561","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: The desert.\n[Duncan Campbell laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4451.84,4453.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1562","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nAll right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4453.97,4455.26"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1563","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"There's a place in Syria,\non the Mediterranean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4455.26,4461.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1564","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"where there's a castle\nwhich is replete","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4461.68,4464.56"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1565","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with every kind of\npleasure garden.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4464.56,4467.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1566","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And there is the ocean\nto bathe in and refresh oneself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4467.41,4473.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1567","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the sultan\nonce inhabited this spot,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4473.43,4478.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1568","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and he had every kind of person\ncome into his court,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4478.21,4480.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1569","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"providing all kinds of culture,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4480.61,4482.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1570","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and delightful situations\nof all kinds.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4482.88,4488.27"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1571","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And stretching out\nactually right behind this area","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4488.27,4492.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1572","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"are the sands of a desert,\nstretching towards Palestine.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4492.8,4499.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1573","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So, why would one\never leave this castle?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4499.89,4504.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1574","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean what's the point?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4504.98,4508.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1575","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nYou're asking me?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4509.55,4510.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1576","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Mhmm.\n[Laughs; Trungpa Rinpoche\nlaughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4510.76,4513.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1577","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nWhat's your time span?\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4513.97,4518.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1578","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nAs much time as we need.\n[Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4518.76,4521.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1579","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nNo, I don't mean in that sense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4521.18,4522.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1580","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean in the sense of,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4522.76,4525.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1581","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"are you content\nthat your units of time,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4525.32,4530.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1582","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as a living human being,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4530.22,4532.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1583","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"will terminate\nwith each satisfaction?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4532.16,4536.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1584","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\n\"Units of time terminate","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4537.04,4538.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1585","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with each satisfaction...\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4538.98,4541.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1586","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: I mean--\nMICHAEL KOHN:\nYou mean it goes on after that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4541.02,4544.16"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1587","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nIt goes on after that, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4544.16,4547.59"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1588","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well, I mean--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4547.59,4548.88"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1589","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Now it--\nI mean the definition","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4548.88,4550.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1590","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as I understand\nit of entertainment,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4550.93,4552.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1591","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as Rinpoche's\nbeen using the word,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4552.92,4555.77"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1592","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is that the \"reinforcement\" --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4555.77,4558.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1593","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as these damn psychologists\ncall it [laughter; laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4558.25,4566.99"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1594","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"-- is within the immediate\ntime span of the action","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4566.99,4570.02"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1595","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which adds the reinforcement,\nso to speak.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4570.02,4573.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1596","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You see, and you get\nan endless payoff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4573.25,4575.59"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1597","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And you never build up\nany real intensity","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4575.59,4578.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1598","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or any real dissatisfaction,\nor indeed any real creativity.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4578.98,4585.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1599","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: Well, I mean,\nwho asked for creativity?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4587.27,4589.37"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1600","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: And the only\nthing that lengthens your--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4589.37,4591.76"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1601","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that makes you go out\ninto that desert is the end,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4591.76,4594.9"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1602","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"an elongated time span\nof some kind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4594.9,4597.7"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1603","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: But there's a\ncomplication there, Gregory,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4597.7,4600.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1604","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"if I may say so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4600.94,4602.95"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1605","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That if in fact\nthe satisfaction presents itself","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4602.95,4608.93"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1606","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"always in the same time sequence\nas the desire,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4608.93,4614.81"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1607","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"then in the moment\nin which that system fails,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4614.81,4620.21"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1608","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"one ceases to be\nattached to it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4620.21,4621.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1609","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThen maybe you go to the desert.\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4621.64,4624.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1610","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nBut the way it seem -- right --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4624.07,4625.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1611","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but the way it seems\nto work more often,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4625.31,4626.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1612","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is that one time out of twenty\nor one one time out of thirty,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4626.6,4631.65"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1613","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or one time out of a hundred,\nthe satisfaction--\nGREGORY BATESON: It works.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4631.65,4634.8"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1614","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: --occurs in\nthe same time sequence.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4634.8,4636.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1615","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then when the satisfaction\nnever comes one","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4636.89,4638.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1616","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"just continues reaching for it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4638.97,4640.36"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1617","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nAnd you do it over again.\nBERNIE WEITZMAN: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4640.36,4642.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1618","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Try it again,\nlike the original","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4642.96,4644.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1619","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"first definition\nat the beginning of the--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4644.18,4645.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1620","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Right.\nGREGORY BATESON: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4645.49,4647.94"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1621","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Well I think\nit's a long term project.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4647.94,4654.265"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1622","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But, it is certain that we know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4654.265,4657.6"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1623","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that when you rush constantly\nin the pleasure realm,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4657.6,4669.39"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1624","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that you want to get\nout of the Disneyland.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4670.71,4676.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1625","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"A change of some kind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4679.02,4682.32"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1626","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: So the desert\nbecomes no pleasure, then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4684.0,4687.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1627","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nSounds like the pleasure\nbecomes the desert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4687.07,4689.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1628","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: This--\nTRUNGPA RINPOCHE:\nPleasure becomes desert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4689.44,4692.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1629","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nThere's a curious business.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4693.68,4696.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1630","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don't know how much\ndepression you've lived with --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4696.2,4698.71"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1631","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I have lived\nwith quite a bit --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4698.71,4701.44"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1632","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the thing which is\nabsolutely fatal,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4701.44,4704.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1633","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is entertainment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4704.66,4706.98"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1634","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"One sort of thinks entertainment\nwould be an escape","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4706.98,4709.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1635","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"from depression,\nand it just isn't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4709.57,4713.91"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1636","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If you want to get away\nfrom depression,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4713.91,4715.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1637","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the thing to do is to go towards\nclassical phonograph records","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4715.43,4720.85"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1638","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"say,\nor classical literature,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4720.85,4723.41"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1639","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"rather than towards\nentertainment literature.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4723.41,4727.14"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1640","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Towards art rather than--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4727.14,4728.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1641","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"there's a difference\nbetween those two.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4728.47,4732.51"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1642","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Why do you\nthink entertainment is fatal?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4732.51,4736.03"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1643","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: It becomes\ntasteless very very quickly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4737.67,4741.69"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1644","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nBut why do you--?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4742.8,4744.15"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1645","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nSomehow plunges you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4744.15,4745.66"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1646","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because depression\nis an appetite,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4745.66,4749.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1647","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"becomes then an addiction,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4749.46,4752.2"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1648","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the addiction\ncan never be satisfied,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4752.2,4754.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1649","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"if you let it get addicted\ntowards entertainment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4754.61,4758.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1650","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It's like reassuring\nsomebody who's frightened.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4759.78,4763.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1651","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"This does not get rid of their\nfear; it feeds that fear.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4763.45,4768.46"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1652","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You see? If you reassure\nsomebody who's frightened\nor afraid,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4771.55,4775.34"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1653","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you are justifying them\nin being afraid.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4775.34,4777.4"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1654","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL: Mhmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4777.4,4778.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1655","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: And there's\nsomething of the same sort","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4778.75,4780.13"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1656","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with entertainment\nand satisfaction move,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4780.13,4784.78"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1657","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"of sort of a more\nbasic satisfaction.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4784.78,4788.68"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1658","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN:\nSo, it emerges then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4790.69,4793.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1659","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that there's satisfaction\nwhich goes beyond entertainment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4793.57,4798.0"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1660","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nYes sir. I believe so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4798.0,4802.23"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1661","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"TRUNGPA RINPOCHE: Mhmm.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4803.75,4808.155"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1662","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nBut that sounds to me","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4808.155,4809.22"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1663","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"like the psychology\nof depression, frankly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4809.22,4813.29"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1664","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That one--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4813.29,4814.49"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1665","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nYou mean it's not universal?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4814.49,4816.12"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1666","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"There are people\nwho are not depressed?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4816.12,4817.82"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1667","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nWell that one hopes","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4817.82,4819.06"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1668","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that one could in fact\nescape the depression, and--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4819.06,4823.64"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1669","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nBy going to a psychiatrist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4823.64,4824.89"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1670","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN: Right. [Laughs]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4824.89,4826.1"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1671","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nOr by going deeper","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4826.1,4827.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1672","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"into the depression.\nOr by any number of strategies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4827.38,4829.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1673","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: Ah! That, yes!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4829.74,4832.45"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1674","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BERNIE WEITZMAN:\nAnd it seems that the--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4834.87,4837.57"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1675","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that any attempt\nto escape the depression,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4837.57,4839.74"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1676","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"by going into it\nor trying to get out of it,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4839.74,4843.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1677","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"presents itself\nas a neurotic pattern,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4843.62,4846.25"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1678","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and one always crashes\nagain into the depression.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4846.25,4849.92"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1679","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because one imagines\nstill that one","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4849.92,4852.19"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1680","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is capable\nof pulling one's socks up","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4852.19,4854.75"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1681","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[laughter]\nin that sense, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4854.75,4859.18"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1682","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON: I see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4859.18,4860.47"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1683","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nSo we finally come down","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4860.47,4861.72"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1684","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to an acceptance of the reality,\nin which we all live.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4861.72,4865.96"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1685","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MICHAEL KOHN: [Laughs]\nUh oh--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4865.96,4867.58"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1686","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GREGORY BATESON:\nFamous last words?\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4867.58,4870.09"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1687","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nThat's actually a lead-in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4870.09,4871.31"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1688","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to the question period.\n[Laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4871.31,4875.43"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1689","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nI thought this might be","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4875.43,4877.08"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1690","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"an appropriate time to open\nthe discussion to the audience,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4877.08,4881.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1691","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and to see what kind of response\nthat would bring.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4881.38,4891.61"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1692","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DUNCAN CAMPBELL:\nWell I think our time is up,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4891.61,4892.97"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1693","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and I'd like to thank you all\nfor being here on \"Open Secret\",","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4892.97,4896.73"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1694","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a series of discussions\ntaped in Boulder, Colorado","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4896.73,4900.325"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1695","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"by Naropa Institute.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4900.325,4901.62"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1696","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tonight, our topic has been\n\"Origins of Neurosis\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4901.62,4904.38"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1697","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and I'd like to thank the people\nthat have been with us:","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4904.38,4907.05"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1698","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Bernie Weitzman,\nChogyam Trungpa Rinpoche,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4907.05,4911.07"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1699","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Gregory Bateson,\nand Michael Kohn,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4911.07,4914.28"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1700","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and my name is Duncan Campbell\nand I've been the moderator.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4914.28,4917.33"},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1701","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Thank you very much.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223#t=4917.33,4920.08"}]},{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://cti.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1943/collection_resources/76085/file/167223/transcript/40384/annotation/1702","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/040/384/original/19740724VCTR2-Captions-ForVideo.vtt?1667065276","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/040/384/original/19740724VCTR2-Captions-ForVideo.vtt?1667065276"}]}]}]}